GM deal moves electric car development to China -- a 'shakedown'?

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Combine this with the news that GM missed their yearly sales target for the Volt by a large amount and you wonder how much the government is willing to spend (or even throw away) to make a failed policy work.

It's not GM's property, really. It's US government (read: taxpayer) property.

I just had a similar conversation with this as a subtopic. We were talking about contractors but a government-owned company, it seems to me, is very nearly the same as far as ownership of intellectual property rights.

Which is why they're insisting they be given the tech to build EVs themselves rather than import them.

The reason GM "missed" it's initial sales projects for the Volt is because they stopped production to redesign the placement of the battery pack. The reason EVERY car company is doing electric vehicle development in China is because the Chinese government is offering MASSIVE subsidies because it wants this business; something American conservatives have opposed happening in America and they have no one but themselves to blame for not offering market competitive incentives packages. You know it, I know it.

If we want to compete we either do what it takes to remain competitive (including offering equal subsidies just as states now do for automakers to place factories in their state) or we accept that other states will get a lock on these industries. Your opposition to offering equal subsidies but then blubbering when industry relocates to take advantage of subsidies is retarded.

How is "extensive taxpayer funding" different from "massive subsidies"?

The "bailout" was to keep the 10 million or so regular cars per year in production and prevent suppliers from going bankrupt (all the automakers including the foreign makers supported that) where as China is offering huge subsidies specifically for electric and hybrid car production because they believe that is the future and they want production of that based in China. If we want that technology based here we have a couple of options 1) Admit China is being an unfair competitor by subsidizing and tariff their products out of our market 2) Match their subsidies so production can happen in America even without tariffs or 3) Give up, claim America can't compete, and allow the whole industry to move overseas. Which do you choose?

The tax break should be more than enough incentive to spur interest in the field. The concept is something most Democrats and Republicans are familiar and comfortable with.

It's the fact that this government-owned and heavily subsidized company is failing miserably by every standard in this spotlight area and, at the same time making deals to [-]sell out[/-] give tech to China that really bothers me.

:LOL: Spoken like someone who has no clue what he is talking about. Clearly, you have chosen option 3.

The reason GM missed its sales projections for the Volt is because no one wants the fucking car.

It's that simple.

No one wants it.

GM wasn't even able to sell 8000 of them for all of 2011.

People want gas cars.

People can want all they want, won't matter when there isn't enough gas to run all those cars.

Which will only happen in my lifetime if the environazi shitheads succeed at depriving us of all drilling and refining capability.

Plenty of gas around. Will be plenty of gas in the future.

In fact right now in America we've got so much gas supplies that we've turned into an exporter of gas.

is that because the price is so high most people can't afford it?

And because the car itself is an overwrought fucking turd.

Ya don't suppose there were some strings attached to all that money China loaned us, do ya?

Electric cars will be a success when they offer the same performance as current fossil-fuel cars for the same price. Not before.

And grease bomb cheeseburgers, and cigarettes.

And then blubber about skyrocketing health costs.

You will compromise and sacrifice for mother earth, and you will fucking like it!

Glad that's in writing, because history is gonna prove that to be a lie.
Our, at best, naive.

We're talking a pack of bozos that care more about the winner of American Idol than the presidential elections.

That cared more about Gilligan's Island than Apollo 13.

That yawned at the shuttle launch that sent up the fucking Hubble.

That eats chocolate eggs because a Palestinian carpenter (allegedly) got nailed to a piece of wood.


No, electric will surpass gas cars in performance, and marketing swine will still lead these barely sapient lifeforms back to their beloved pusher man.

"Surpass" is a bold claim, but I'll take anything that doesn't limit the size and capability of vehicle I'm "allowed" to purchase, insure, and maintain.

You should live so long.

We'll still be running cars on gasoline in 50 years, I'd bet. And, if not, it will only be because they were regulated out of existence, not because petroleum ran out...

I doubt electric cars will surpass gas cars in performance, if both markets are left to develop freely. It comes down to energy density. Gasoline has it. Batteries don't.

In any event, as battery technology advances for electric cars, so, too, will it for hybrids, extending the dominance of gasoline for another few decades...

And, as long as the person who wants X pays for Y, there's no problem. But when someone else pays for Y, suddenly X's personal choices become someone else's business.

Oops!

Of course, in today's world of medical insurance your personal choices can affect my costs...but never mind...carry on...

And if I start consuming health care resources out of proportion to my contribution to the insurance plan, I should see my premiums go higher. It's no different than how car insurance works; if I'm irresponsible, it will show up on my driving record and I will pay more.

you also affect the rates for everyone else in your zip code.

And WHY are you restricted to your own fucking zip code?

And they "affect" me. That's always going to be the case with insurance, no matter how big the pool.

So, how do you fix this? Try to regulate everyone to the level of perfect health? Not going to happen, for reasons both practical (not everyone has the same potential) and cultural (most people will not tolerate that much interference with their lives). There will always be people who will be more expensive and those who will be less expensive. Just like with car insurance, those who take significantly more ought to put more in.

Well, not without Palladium, no.

Aaaah, but in tomorrow's more perfect world of health insurance, personal choice will be a thing of the past. Carry on while you can, eh?

I think it unlikely that batteries will be the future of electric vehicles. I'm thinking either some kind of fuel cell or else a version of the supercapacitor technology currently being developed.