How to apologize for supporting the war on Iraq

I wonder if Eric Shinseki has received any apologies.

No, Libya had Pakistan's WMDs. In fact, we're so mad at Pakistan for selling nuclear technology to other countries, that's were selling F-16's and other related equipment to Pakistan. My company just got a $78 Million contract to sell state-of-the-art military equipment to Pakistan.

See, there's another fuckup we're making. We should stop selling our state-of-the-art weapons to these little shithole countries, 'cause invariably we wind up having to fight them.

It's revolting that American kids get wounded and killed by weapons made in America.

Some call my stance "isolationist": I call it common sense.

Maybe Colt and S&W and Ruger could stop making handguns then. Far more Ameircan kids are killed each year with their American-made products than are killed by products make by Lockheed-Martin or General Dynamics.

We kill them over here so we don't have to kill them over there.

You prove my point.

How big a backlash did you see against Turkey for moving against the PKK? Hmmm?

It looks to me like the Kurds in Northern Iraq are pretty content with their autonomy, so much so that they're not going to raise a big stink about Turkey moving against the PKK.

Then don't bitch about the number of Iraqis being killed now by the insurgents.

Fine.

Again, it's lasted for several years now and it's getting stronger.

That's silly. But why so gung-ho to invade Saudi Arabia? Wouldn't that "create more terrorists" and get us into another "unwinnable war?"

Don't have to. They gave up WMDs willingly.

Are you trying to be dense? They had their own programs and they gave them up.

We are. It's in our interests to make sure that Middle Eastern oil is not controlled by regimes hostile to us.

You seem to think that until the Iranian Army comes marching down Pennsylvania Avenue that they can't be much of a problem. You're wrong.

Throwing up your hands and refusing to deal with a problem does not end the problem. Until the Middle East--read Muslem world--becomes civilized, we're going to have more 9/11s. And unless action is taken and fairly soon, it will be with WMDs eventually.

First, the F-16 is hardly state-of-the-art. Second, Pakistan remains an ally in the War on Terror. Third, care to name the last time U.S. forces engaged in battle against opponents flying American fighters?

And where is that happening?

Isolationism is a fantasy. In today's globalized, interconnected world, it simply is not an option. It really isn't. It's also not desirable: it will lead to regional threats that grow until they're so large, we have to deal with them.

Not much at all. Just sort of a hemming and hawing and saying that Turkey at some point needed to get out of there. Turkey, of course, is a NATO ally, so us getting pissy with them is not in our best interest. None of which "proves" your point. It's quite clear that many o*f the Kurds want a united Kurdistan, and that can only come from carving up parts of Iraq, Iran and Turkey. Let's not forget that within Turkey, the Kurds are rabble rousers and Turkey has dealt with the Kurds inside of Turkey, rather violently. Those Kurds don't seem inclined to pack up and move to northern Iraq, and neither do the Iranian Kurds.

Yeah, they're so content that their pushing to become an independant state, with the US caught trying to figure out how to keep the Kurds happy, while not letting them form their own country.

On the contrary, it shows that Turkey has a freedom of action it has not had before. Which was my point exactly.

Many may want that. But until it happens, it hasn't happened. Also, it's in the interest of the Kurds to keep the separatist threat alive to increase their bargaining power in the national government.

The Iranian Kurds are Iran's problem (and how I hope we will make sure they are Iran's problem! ) and the separatist Kurds in Turkey no longer have secure bases in Iraq.

Is the problem solved? No. Is the situation improved. Unquestionably.

As I said: until it happens, it hasn't happened.

Until some lasting national unity occurs, I can't claim victory on that score. But until some national schism occurs, YOU can't claim failure on that score, either. And, as of this moment, things are trending more in my direction than in yours.

Bull. Do you think we would have said anything to Turkey if they'd made the incursion while Saddam was in power? Certainly not a damned thing he could have done to stop the Turks. Rommel proved that once you obtain military air superiority in desert combat, the field of battle is yours. Iraq hasn't had an air force since Gulf War 1.0

Both in Iraq and Turkey, which means that we can expect there to be instability in the region for some time to come. Not a good thing, IMHO.

That we know of. the area's not exactly what I'd call "civilized" and like Osama, they've probably got plenty of hide outs in reserve.

Really? You think that the Turks accomplished anything more than a temporary quelling of the PKK? You're talking about a part of the world where they still get bent out of shape over things that happened hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago. The only way the situation can be improved is if people stop solely considering military options. Build the region up economically so that folks actually care if their shit get's blown up (because they actually have something for a change) and you'll see some changes. Otherwise, you can expect it to boil over again some time in the near future.

So, hiding your head in the sand is your answer then? That's kind of what got us into this mess with Afghanistan in the first place.

Bull. What you're doing is looking at a crumbling bridge and saying, "It hasn't collapsed yet, so it's still good!" when the reality is that thing's going to fall apart at any moment. What finally settled Europe down wasn't the US putting military bases up all over the place (though that did stop Soviet expansion), but the economic build up of the nations of Europe. People who're fat and happy tend not to want to go to war. Unless, and until, there's solid economic development in that part of the world, it's always going to be a powder keg.

I'm talking about the $78 Million of state-of-the-art Electronic Warfare systems my employer is selling to Pakistan.

You work for Lockheed Martin?

Not if those Third World shitholes don't have anything to fight with.

I didn't say my opinion was isolationism. I said it was common sense. Don't give a potential enemy parity.

Claims like this should be chiselled in stone soemwhere, right underneath the bits about WMDs, being greeted with flowers, and being out within months, for future reference in case the same oracles should keep making more prophecies.

It isn't a prophecy. It's my take on the current situation, supported by available facts. Prophecy is a claim about the future, as in: "It's inevitable that the Kurds will separate from Iraq and try to form an independent Kurdistan."

We were greeted with flowers.*

I was there.









*Well, maybe not flowers. But they had little American flags.

Pretty much nails it for me. I'll only defer on the fact that in hindsight, we should've had more troops for the occupation, and I did and continue to think we should've pulled a MacArthur on Iraq by writing their new constitution for them instead of the whole "interim govt." thing.