Is this all the beginning of the end of the United States?

This thread has now officially become Thanksgiving at your parents' house.

I certainly prefer the current French government to the current American government, that much is indisputable. Emmanuel Macron, for all his flaws, is not the incompetent, arrogant, lying, bullying, whining, name-calling neo-nazi sympathizer that Donald Trump is, and even though his prime minister and his government have made plenty of mistakes, they are a model of competence compared to Trump's dismal performance.

As to whether I prefer France itself or America itself, that depends in what area. There are things I absolutely detest about France (the constant strikes in the public sector, the fact that my taxes help finance the far-left progaganda machine that is Radio-France, the incredibly bloated and complicated bureaucracy...) but there are also things I absolutely detest about the USA (the blatant racism, significantly worse even than what we have here in France, the dismal ignorance of most Americans about the rest of the world, the arrogance that makes most of them assume automatically that they always have the high moral ground no matter what awful things the country does...) The bottom line is that I don't think either one is perfect, and I have no qualms about criticizing what is not good. I know you don't like that, but I consider it a fundamental right.

And even if I did prefer France to the USA, that does not make me "anti-American". Are you "anti-French" because you prefer the USA to France? People have a right to their opinions, you know. They even have the right to opinions that are not the same as yours. That does not make them enemies, contrary to what you seem to think.

And yes, I am still an American citizen. I can and do vote. (Don't you remember how seriously you criticized me when you imagined I hadn't voted in the 2016 presidential election?) I even vote in Michigan, which is an important swing state, so my vote makes a huge difference in presidential elections. And you can be sure that I will be voting for Joe Biden. I do not expect him to be a very good president, just average at best, but that is incomparably better than a neo-nazi sympathizer who does not uphold the First Amendment and thinks it's all good as long as he upholds the Second.

And I highly suspect that that is the primary reason you think I am anti-American. No matter how much I like France, if I had been as opposed to the Obama government as I am to the Trump government, I suspect you would consider me a patriot.

I don't think this is the beginning of the end of the US.

It may be the end of a certain period of it, but not the end of the nation as a whole.

I'm not scared of any change I see on the horizon.

The fear that the period you refer to is ending is what prompted the original question.

Sir this is a KFC/A&W/Benihana drive-thru. I'm gonna have to ask you to pull forward around the onion volcano and leave.

I see a future United States as being less "white", which bothers me not in the least, but I could see where it would concern the insecure among us.

My point exactly.

The US is not Rome, though there are similarities. I think we’ll be fine in the end. I don’t want to be an ass kisser, but @Amaris and @spot261 among others (read: Dave Chapelle) have pointed some harsh realities that I wasn’t willing to accept. After re-reading some of my books about the founding principles of this country, I’ve come to conclude that I was wrong about my initial emotional response. I admittedly got defensive over what seemed to be blanket statements or broad brushed arguments. For that I’m sorry. I’m sure @Man Afraid of his Shoes will love this because he’s called me out in the past over it, but a real man knows when to back down. Some here will continue to troll me. That’s fine, be an asshole. I recognize that things obviously need to change. I’ve even talked about it before. What any of this has to do with the OP, I don’t know, but it’s just something I wanted to say. Make fun of me if you want, so be it. For those who want to have a conversation, I haven’t left the table. I’m sick of the division and Trump had a legitimate chance to heal the country, he didn’t take it. The upside down triangle Nazi shit is most definitely the last straw. Last thing though, just because I disagree with you on the left, doesn’t make me a Nazi. I’m willing to keep the conversation going. As Chapelle said, this is the last vestige of discourse. That doesn’t mean I’m going to agree with you on everything. Okay, I’m rambling. Just throwing that out there. Peace.

It reassures me that at least one American (and if there's one on Wordforge, there must be a lot more out there) is able to see this. The red-triangle-88-14-word business can't possibly be a coincidence. It takes willful blindness to think otherwise. So there are only those who dare to speak out against it, those who actually think it's a good thing, and those who want to pretend it never happened because it would upset their worldview and nothing can be allowed to do that. I applaud you very sincerely for being in the first group.

There is nothing wrong with being on the right politically. I agree with some of the positions of the right myself. But if those on the right and those on the left could actually carry on a rational dialog (there are blind bigots on both sides), it might be possible to see where each group actually has glimpsed some part of Truth.

So again I say:

It’s the difference between a good man and a horrible man l. Even the worst President, you name it, has known when to STFU and at the very least, do or say something to heal the country. Trump is just an irredeemable douche. I wanted him to be better, even though there was little possibility. He had every opportunity and still didn’t take it. He’s like Kahn, but extremely stupider. Yes I know that’s not a word and Khan was actually smart, but you get it.

Good. You're drawing the line at Hitler. That's way farther to the right than I'd like, but it is where the conflict stands now. So what's next? What are you going to do about it?

Gotta say, you're braver than Zombie.
When he faced his moment of truth, he fled.

no doubt, but it need booze.

Someone willing to listen to an argument and hear the possibility that they might be wrong is a rare thing these days and I'm reassured to see that some people do have that capacity.

I suspect most people will be much less inclined to make fun of you after this post, but then again this is WF....

I doubt anyone will make fun of him. Now what would amaze the ever loving shit out of me is if any of the hardcore leftforge were ever "willing to listen to an argument and hear the possibility that they might be wrong". Most of them don't want a dialogue, they want a one-sided monologue/sermon. Just my 2 cents!

Try it.

You've never seen me concede a point?

Vote.

Don't do that, the karens will drop off their firebiombs here.

People do change their minds here, but not with you because you are always wrong. You have to actually be correct for a change for this argument to work. Just because you always say 2+2=15 does not mean people are disagreeing with you for the sake of disagreeing and you deserve some credit for making a statement.

You are a whiny racist cunt always. Try not being one for a fucking change.

IIRC, you didn't vote for Trump last time either.

I didn’t, but there’s not much else I can do that will be effective.

Aww, come on, can't you say that 2+2=15 a little bit sometimes?
Y'know, in the name of feeeelings??

*Tereruns says "no""*

WELL!!!
Then you're just HORRIBLE!!
No Mario 3 for your birthday!!
See how you like that!!


(Gee, y'get the feeling I'm channeling an experience here? )

You can join the protests. You can make yourself heard, publicly and privately. You can back programs against voter suppression and fraud, to increase the chances of an at least somewhat fair election. You can choose to actually vote against Trump effectively, rather than a third candidate.

Additionally, there’s voting for candidates in all positions that will oppose Trump and have a viable chance of winning. Because if Trump gets re-elected, but Congress is overwhelmingly controlled by the Democrats, his days are numbered. Campaigns are also always looking for volunteers and if all you want to do is bring them coffee, they’ll be happy to have you. The connections and skills you pick up will be transferable to any campaign, so even if you’re not helping your preferred candidate this time around, you’ll be a bigger help to the candidate you like next time. Even if there’s nobody in a local race that needs your help, campaigns from other cities and states can put you to work calling and texting people on their behalf.

I said the hardcore leftforge folks - IMHO you come off as actually well meaning, versus the kewl kids echo chamber crusaders with a superiority/messiah complex.

^Speaking of hyperbole.

That translates to your penchant for mindless insults in place of discussion.

Now, go ahead. Give us some more mindless insults.

Oh I have. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Even If I am right, I'll be wrong in the court of public opinion considering I am vastly outnumbered. I mean just the non-American wordforge members percentage leaning left is what.......100 percent or so? And the American left leaning percentage is what...around 70 percent? I can't beat that numerical advantage. If the left doesn't want to believe 2 +3 = 5 they'll just shout me down or call me a whiner. Who needs that abuse? Enjoy your echo chamber/circle jerk!

I'll just stick to green room and media threads from now on. Thanks for giving me that motivation to quit trying to even discuss anything political with the exclusive leftist circle jerk!

I dunno, that came off as kinda grouchy and bitter.
Where's your Bozo The Clown persona?
Everyone loves that one.

You gonna be okay?
Wanna soda?

You mean by people who have facts at their disposal? No argument there. If you've got something else, feel free to present it.

I used to be a Christian fundamentalist, a hardcore conservative. For what idea do you want remediation?

I did calls for Ron Paul in 2012. A lot of people didn’t want to talk to me.