Obamacare - Pay for insurance or go to jail

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by Azure, Sep 26, 2009.

  1. Azure

    Azure I could kick your ass

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    http://www.politico.com/livepulse/0909/Ensign_receives_handwritten_confirmation_.html?showall

    Hope and change!
  2. Gnome Chomsky

    Gnome Chomsky THE LEXICONNIST!

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    :jayzus:phucking Cry'ist:bang:

    Barackilljoys at it AGAIN:mad:

    :wtf:
  3. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Well, it's change, all right...
  4. Shirogayne

    Shirogayne Gay™ Formerly Important

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    [-]HOPE AND[/-] CHANGE!!!!!!!!11!!1
  5. Liet

    Liet Dr. of Horribleness, Ph.D.

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    That's almost certain a penalty for contempt of court, not for not buying insurance. If you don't buy insurance, you can be fined--well, of course; that's what "mandate" means. If you're fined and don't pay, there can be a judgment entered against you. If you ignore that judgment, you're in contempt of court, no different than for any other judgment. And, of course, reality is that in all but the most extreme cases, the government will just seize your assets or garnish your wages, kinda like for failure to pay child support or for filing a truthful tax return without paying all your taxes.
  6. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Uh yeah... that is the whole point. :yes:
  7. Sean the Puritan

    Sean the Puritan Endut! Hoch Hech!

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    Enough with all the mindless pedantry about a penalty for not paying a penalty, do you AGREE with all this crap?
  8. Azure

    Azure I could kick your ass

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    Point of what? Forcing people to buy healthcare insurance? Having UHC?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    The point of reform. Forcing people to buy health insurance being the point of forcing people to buy health insurance wouldn't make much sense would it? :discuss: :lol:
  10. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    I do.

    We don't have the heart to check bank accounts at ERs, so the only other alternative is to ensure that people have Medical Insurance. Otherwise you get what we got now Universal Healthcare only where the responsible are subsidizing the irresponsible.

    How can you do that without putting a fine on not buying it?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. Liet

    Liet Dr. of Horribleness, Ph.D.

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    Well, there is single payer, but that's not happening.
  12. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    For good reason. :bailey:
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. Tuttle

    Tuttle Listen kid, we're all in it together.

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    So, for six days we punish the responsible and reward the irresponsible.

    And on the seventh we're supposed to believe the point is to reward the responsible to the detriment of irresponsible? Heh, yeah, good one.


    What's really up is the vacuum suck of a fedgov gone amok with taxes. Suck the blood from the productive members of the economy to conceal mismanagement corruption and incompetence of government. Any incidental benefit that coincides with good policy is totally unintentional and even undesirable, according to every action taken by Barry since inauguration.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

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    Recognition that insurance is not a viable business model for medicine absent government support would be a start.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Azure

    Azure I could kick your ass

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    Anc still has a point though. It is illegal(IIRC)...to refuse people emergency treatment. If they're not covered, who is supposed to pay for it?

    I don't agree, at all, with forcing people to buy insurance and sending them to jail if they don't, but outside of simply saying they're not covered even if they come in needing a instant blood transfusion or they die, what else can you do?
  16. Eminence

    Eminence Fresh Meat

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    :lol: You do realize that Obama spent the last year arguing against what you are suggesting, yes? Funny, I don't seem recall anyone calling him out on the 'entire point of reform' then.

    You know, you really should stop being an advocate for whatever 'reform' you seem to think you're supporting. You're terrible at it, and end up having the exact opposite effect of your intentions...only hardening peoples position against UHC or any kind of mandate.

    I support UHC, have dedicated my life to realizing that end, and so I am on board with a mandate on purchasing health insurance if it is part of a plan that is efficient in other areas as well, but I don't support these bills because if you look at what else is included - basically, a line of revenue from citizens to corporations, facilitated by the government via IRS enforceable dollars -- you will see that whatever policy advantages one may think might be derived from a mandate, they are far, far eclipsed by the incredible amounts of cost controlling failures in the bill. It is parading around as UHC (or something approximating it, one can never be sure how Obama will phrase it depending on the day of the week), but it is a disaster. Much like, as I said, your own attempts to 'support' UHC/mandates.

    Anyway, here is some history for others on how before this flip-flop, Obama used to trash the idea of a mandate. The language is a bit sensational yes, (unfortunately, I don't have time to summarize this guy's post in a more toned down manner) but consider it yet another profile into Obama's long list of hypocrisies...

    [?=Obama was against mandates before he was for it -- heavy on Hillary imagery]

    So, any bets on when the Republicans might point out this bit of hypocrisy on Obama's part while trying to undercut this idea? As the article said, thanks Obama for setting up your opponents attacks for them, and helping undermine UHC along the way. :rolleyes: [/?]
  17. Eminence

    Eminence Fresh Meat

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    BTW, have people heard that Nancy Pelosi seems to be backing away from her support of the public option?

    Hmm, I wonder if David Sirota will excoriate her then too as having a 'meltdown' (as he is known to do when he doesn't get what he wants)....or will he just be a good little BOT, complain for a second, and then 'overlook' it? :jayzus:
  18. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    AWWWW..... Someone is still pissed that I told her an Konji or whatever two years ago that Hillary would never be back in the Whitehouse, and that I would lick their tears. :lol:

    [​IMG]


    At least that is all an can assume has got you so riled up you are talking out your ass. I have never supported a single payer system, and have only offered critiques of the various proposals put forward. Some I like, others I don't.

    In fact if you actually look at what I have said:


    This would be part of 6. Thus it reform that I support. I have also made it clear that I with the Republicans would unite around a counter proposal, and make a concerted effort to sell it to the American people, so that the current plans could be shifted to the Right.




    So try again sad little Hillaryite. :nyer:
  19. Azure

    Azure I could kick your ass

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    The Swiss have a strict private system, IIRC....but it is still one of the best in the world.
  20. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Yes every one is forced to buy insurance from one of several state backed (but not controlled) non-profits.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  21. Bulldog

    Bulldog Only Pawn in Game of Life

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    Isn't this the same thing as Romney did in Massachusetts?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  22. Eminence

    Eminence Fresh Meat

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    Meh, your refrain of "But Hillary lost, hahaha" is stale. It has no relevance to what we are discussing today. Hell, even I don't mention it in terms of the political outcomes that happened last year, but I do think it's important to be mindful of the historical record when we are evaluating current matters. You can't accurately consider a matter if you don't factor in its multi-facted etiology.

    Anyway, what is the point of supporting a mandate if it has none of the other cost controlling measures that must accompany it in order to be efficient? The analysis you've provided here is extremely superficial IMO, it takes one aspect of a concept out of context and then says, "See, it is a good thing." No, it's not a good thing. The idea is horrible if we don't have the necessary cost controls to ensure sure the money that we will be forced to pay is spent with maximum utility.

    Also, in regards to point 6 in the post you quoted -- in terms of the Swiss Healthcare system -- the idea that 'oh, because Switzerland doesn't have a government run insurance plan but does have a mandate, thereby maybe something like that can work here' is largely incomplete.

    Now I know that this idea originated with Paul Krugman most recently, who has contributed a lot of useful critiques over the years, but Krugman is being disingenuous here, and has been told as much. He recognizes it, but at the time, he was under a lot of pressure in August by the blogospheres to put something out there that could help in the argument of "how do you get to UHC without a public option." (ie., provide the pre-emptive spin if the public option gets taken out)

    Krugman knows that the health care economy in Switzerland is vastly different from what we have in the US, with those differences being the reason that make mandates work in CH in the first place without a public option, but he chose to omit those differences in his efforts to imply "well a mandate without the public option might work."

    There are many, many differences but perhaps the most important is that the insurance that the Swiss government mandates be purchased is the kinda insurance that is not-for-profit!!!! As you probably know, that will not be the case here. I mean, even Jenee understands that there is a problem with health insurance being for profit, one that will only grow worse if the government is going to require that we buy from these profit seeking insurers. The "oh, maybe we can get a plan like Switzerland" argument then is extremely misleading and incomplete, IMO.

    More succinctly, as one Huffington Post blogger put it: Switzerland's Health Insurance Providers are Non-Profit: That is the Only Reason Their System Works, Period.

    And since I haven't heard of any plan to turn the entire US health insurance industry into non-profit....I'd say citing the Swiss example as a means to explain how a mandate could work here, is basically rendered impotent.


  23. Azure

    Azure I could kick your ass

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    That is the inevitable problem with providing health care.

    The only way to possibly eliminate it is to create a hardcore private system that through competition and the free market can control the prices.

    The chances of that happening? Next to nill.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  24. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    With you it never grows stale. :lol:

    It in and of itself IS a good thing. It would be a much better thing coupled with other reforms yes.

    But in comparison with the status quo it is an improvement.

    You are a fucking retard. What in 'part of 6' leads you to the conclusion that I only want it?

    Learn to fucking read sad little PUMA troll.


    Hey, thanks, I didn't know that. :techman:


    OH WAIT:

  25. Eminence

    Eminence Fresh Meat

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    :lol: YHGTBKM. Any idiot who knew that Switzerland also has extensive regulatory measures such as making the mandated-purchase private sector plans not-for-profit, would have never suggested mandates as a point of advocacy for the Obama plan. They would realize that the other half of the equation is missing here, and further, that we have not seen anything from the Obama Administration to indicate that they are ready or willing to remedy that aspect. On the contrary, the WH actually sided with the insurers on this, essentially telling them "we will make it law for your prices to remain artificially high." It is as Chris Hedges said, the right wing attacks on Obama are correct. He is a socialist, except that he practices socialism for corporations. And of the many examples of this we have seen of this corporate socialism in the last 8 months, I don't think it's been seen any clearer than it is in the giveaways given to the insurance industries.

    Face it, you didn't know what you were talking about, made a comment you thought might look good (in a vacuum, by your own admission), and are backtracking now that it's been pointed out the teeth behind the ability of mandates to work in tandem with controlling costs is missing.

    But hey, feel to move the goalpost again and say "But, but, that's not only what I want" one more time. It is, as most of us know, a desperate person's last strawman when they are no longer to explain logically their initial statements.

    Ancalagon: My only defense for why I suggested mandates are the whole point of reform is "Well, it's not the only thing I want." Priceless! :rofl:
  26. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    You aren't fooling anyone. My reply to Azure was before your post, moron. You can't change time stamps no matter how much drivel you post. :diacanu:
  27. Azure

    Azure I could kick your ass

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    So, with a non-profit system, you control the costs through private companies without letting the government run the system?

    I mean....its working for the Swiss. :clyde:
  28. Eminence

    Eminence Fresh Meat

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    I have no doubt you are well versed in regurgitating many talking points. After all, teabaggers have to be adept at moving their mouths mechanically.

    It is meaningless however IMO, when considered against the gross misapplication of those talking points. :shrug:
  29. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    :yes:

    Emense is too deep in PUMA troll mode to realize that I've always supported the non-profit angle over the government option... :lol:

    http://www.wordforge.net/showthread.php?t=73240

    Kinda sad, but also funny watching her dance. :diacanu:
  30. Ancalagon

    Ancalagon outta my way Administrator Formerly Important

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    Do you even have an arguement anymore or have you just devolved to insults. :huh: