Question for martial arts adepts

I strongly disagree about martial arts training not being effective in taking on two people at once. I know two martial artists in particular where they could easily handle 2-3 people. They are just extremely powerful people.

You also got to know that your average thug is going to be unhealthy and most likely a smoker/drinker with a bad diet. Whenever I take one of my 'cool' friends to ball hockey, they become extremely winded early on.

 

Okay Mr Seagal, I'm sure when Jan has finished dealing with those guys who've nicked the ship, he'll join you on the train for the sequel.

 

Scorponok is right about thugs not being in shape....then again they don't have to be when they are in a group of other thugs, especially if they are armed. Pulling a trigger or kicking you in the balls while their buds hold you down doesn't take a lot of cardiovascular training.

Agreed, one-on-one the average thug would get their ass handed to them by anyone who trains in just about any martial art. But they don't fight that way. That old line about "take out the leader/biggest one and the rest will run away" is straight-up bullshit most of the time. Take out the big one and you still have four more attacking you.

Fuuniest thing about thug mentality is listening to my son's NWA CD in the car. They are saying something about having a cop take off their badge + their gun and see how tough they are. I'd take that Pepsi challenge anytime! Put a well-trained cop and a gangsta' (of about the same size) in a cage and see who comes out conscious. 99.9 times the thug would last about a minute at best.

 

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJEK6exnaZE

Had to post this to inspire Jan Jansen. Those kid's break falls is pretty impressive!

 

Yes, an expert martial artist, in top form, could likely handle 2-3 attackers--if there were no surprises. But there are a ton of caveats to that.

1) Most people aren't expert martial artists, in top form. Someone who has a fair amount of hand-to-hand combat training and manages to make it to the gym a couple times a week--still head and shoulders above the average person--would be insane to fight more than one person.

2) The instant even the best fighter takes on more than one attacker, the wild card comes into play. Will you slip on uneven footing? Is someone going to pull a knife or a gun? Is there a third person you didn't see that is going to hit you with a pipe? A truckload full of friends just showing up?

It is probably never the first option to get into a street fight, but fighting multiple attackers is probably about the last option.

 

Another two cents' worth of my completely unqualified opinions. The best self-defense techniques are the ones that don't rely on peak athletic condition, a favorable setting, purpose-specific clothing, or perfect technical execution of something complex.

 

But unless you want to compete, it's not practical to spend 10 years perfecting some exacting technique. I say the ideal is something effective that you could teach to your grandma in an afternoon, and the further from that ideal a prospective system strays, the less desirable it becomes.

 

I can at least say I've tried a few things out.

In my limited experience, the best techniques are the simplest ones. The ones that don't rely on anything being ideal. That's not to say they aren't refined and perfected with practice, but you could be wearing restrictive clothes, drunk as hell, standing on ice or loose gravel, sick or injured, etc, and that perfect aerial 360 hook kick it took you years to perfect is completely fucking useless.

 

I'm not nearly a good enough fighter to fight fair or try to incapacitate someone. If I can sneak up behind someone and put them in a chokehold and blood-choke them, I'll do that. But if it is a fair fight, I'm going to be looking around for something I can beat them with. A fire extinguisher is a wonderful weapon. Heavy and capable of shooting a blinding, asphyxiating substance before beating them with it. The old-school home telephone was decent too. The handset was heavy and on a cord. You could use it as a flail, to tangle someone up with, or to choke them. There was a handle on the actual phone to make it easier to control and you could use it sort've like a buckler to block a knife or a bat. It was also fairly heavy, so you could beat someone real good with it.

 

Fair fights are for sporting contests. If it's not serious enough to sneak up behind someone and beat them to death with a claw hammer, it's not serious enough to fight over at all.

 

That's why The Army cherry-picks the simplest moves in their new MMA modeled "Combatives" training. Soldiers have a lot of other things on their plate (picture the Tetly Family from "In Living Color") so they need easily-mastered techniques. Of course they are in peak athletic condition, but not in the area of flexibility.

It's better to master five easy moves than spend weeks prefecting one complicated move ....because Murphy's Law will ensure you don't get to use that "spinning 360 degree kick."

Basically MMA revamped the Army self-defense mindset. When I went to basic in 1988 it blew chunks. Even the Drill Sergeants laughed their asses off at techniques that only work in Hollywood.

Flash forward to now.....if it doesn't work in the UFC, it must not be worth shit...or they would be using it!

Yes, moves involving sneaking up on people from behind are military + law enforcement specific, but for the most part it's applicable to anybody.

Too bad it was really catching fire when I retired. I was loving it! Finally an athletic endeavor I could really get into.

The first thing we learned was the collar choke. Assuming your enemy is wearing a shirt or coat, invert your hands (your knucklestowards each other + your elbows out somewhat) grab their collar tight and twist your knucles out + your elbows in. Their own clothing will instantly squeeze those carotid arteries with extreme efficiency! You also have great leverage to trip them + force them down so you can get total domination quickly and finish choking them.

It's great for if you are on the bottom. Punching upwards is pointless - your leverage + reach are at a big disadvantage. But if they posture up to deliver blows (thus putting space between you and them) and you get a chance to grab that collar.....they pretty much instinctively stop what they were doing to handle the situation of being choked. Assuming you had the smarts to get them in your guard as you went down, you can (without giving up your now effective position) loop a leg around their neck, grab their wrist (trust me, they will be trying to loosen your grip)
and roll over into an arm-bar.

They may be choked out by the time you get this far. Have someone try it out on you.....the second they wrap their hands up into your neck you'll know it!

 

I was surprised at the lack of hand to hand combat training in basic.

There was one girl I would have loved to have knocked on her ass. - well, then. I'm over it now.

 

But like I said, things are changing. Not sure about basic, but AIT and real units are training pretty often. Once the senior officers are on board (most are) they organize tournaments and it starts to snowball.

In a few years you will start seeing more military people in professional MMA - it's inevitable.

 

Had my first training today. It was brutal...

 

Coincidentally, I've been trying out a beginner-level, Muay Thai-based kickboxing class this week. The instructor also has a background in some kind of traditional Karate variant, so a lot of the presentation is appealing to me.

I dunno, I like the class, but it would be $80 a month if I were to join up.

 

You're gonna hurt all over for a month or so, then it'll be fine. Just gut it out.

 

I like the Marine Corps style of martial arts: knock a man down and stomp on his face.

Seriously, it takes a loooooong time to get good with martial arts and, no matter how good you get, you're not going to be able to take on a group of people. Even 2 or 3 opponents will have you on the ground pretty quickly.

No GUN? Then RUN.

Penn & Teller did a pretty good show on the limited utility of martial arts:

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Yes, those "board breakers" are pathetic. Try breaking boards when someone is punching you in the face, and tell me how that goes for you.

Being attacked by a group of people (or a really huge, strong dude) really all boils down to intent. If someone wants to beat your ass to harm you (versus beat your ass to scare you or take your money, or they are just pissed off) they will, period.

These people that say "I was jumped and beaten" and all they have is a black eye, trust me......they didn't want to really fuck you up.

You get attacked with aggravated intent you will get put in the hospital (or grave) for a lengthy period....period.

I'm old....too old to act macho.....if I feel my life is in danger (to the point where I am forced to fight) I will try to kill you. I won't knock you out, or duke it out with you + your buddies. I will use every weapon I can improvise and go all out to literally kill you.....or as I call it, "eliminate the threat." If I can take your weapon, I will kill you with it, and everyone attacking me.

If I'm going to miss work from injury, I'm getting my money's worth!