Refugees from Syria and stuff...

Some of you might have noticed that the war in Syria and Iraq created a situation which never happened since WWII in Europe. Literally, millions of people are running for their lives and seek shelter. Poor countries like Lebanon -which has a population of around five million, afaik - has to deal with one million refugees from Syria alone.

A member of Switzerlands Green Party named Balthasar Glättli proposed today that Switzerland should take a leading role and allow 100'000 refugees from Syria to enter my country in the next few weeks and months. Just let them in, now!

This made me think...

-Switzerland is insanely rich compared to other countries which have to deal with a far higher number of refugees. When there is a country on this planet which can afford humanitarian help, it's Switzerland.
-Things are getting out of hand. These people, mostly women and children, are in real danger to die of famine or to be raped, tortured and killed by barbarians. It's a matter of life and death.
-By allowing this refugees to enter Switzerland in the next days and weeks and without making a fuss about it, my country would send a message to Europe and the world: "We care, we are humanists, whe are civilised. We have a tradition of humanitarian help. People are dying, let's act! Doing nothing and letting these people die would be proof that the so-called "Western Civilisation" is all talk and that our values are worth exactly nothing.

On the other hand...:
-25 % of the people in Switzerland already have a foreign passport.
-These 100'000 Syrians would be here to stay. They will not leave again, as experience with refugees from Kosovo has shown. They will multiply like flies... Ugly words, but it will happen.
-These people have to be fed. They have no chance to integrate in our society because of many reasons, for example lack of language skills and education. They will never have a chance to make a living on their own, never. Let's be realistic here. Take in mind that it is almost impossible for a Swiss citizen aged 50 to find a new job. Jobs are rare in general in a highly developed economy like that of Switzerland, and work for poorly educated people literally doesn't exist anymore. Let's feed our own people first!
-What about Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, and Dubai? They are rich too, they should care about their muslim brethren...

I could go on and on... There are so many pros and contras. Far too many...

I detest Islam, I don't like the idea of 100'000 muslims entering my country... On the other hand, these people are dying. And they are not islamists, they are just poor bastards, victims of war... Women and children, suffering, starving... And this in 2015, on the borders of Europe! In this second!

As bizarre as it might sound, the idea of this green party nuthead has some merit for me. What do you think?

It's not fair for Switzerland to have to do things unilaterally. This is an international problem. Europe as a whole should be stepping up.

True, but one has to make the first move, or people will die. The EU will argue about the fair distribution of all these refugees for the next years, even decades.... The EU will discuss to the bitter end and never come to a solution... As always. Lots of talk. You know how things work inside the EU...

The real solution is to clean up the problem(s) that the people are running away from.

Like sending 100'000 troops to Syria and Iraq to crush ISIS in a month or two? I agree. But we both know that this will not happen. And in the long run, even one million boots on the ground will not help.

So what's your solution? Nukes don't count!

The sad thing is: If we ( The EU, The US and Switzerland) ignore the whole disaster, the refugees will come anyway. They will flood Europe, because they have absolutely nothing to lose. No walls or ocean will stop them. These people are desperate.

I think these kinds of arguments are worth looking at closely, because some of them fly in the face of reality.

Switzerland has a population of roughly 8.2 million. If 25% have a foreign passport, as you say, that's 2.05 million. If you add 100,000 Syrians, that will be 2.15 million, for a total population of 8.3 million. In that new Switzerland, 25.9% of the population will have a foreign passport. I would contend that this shows that accepting 100,000 Syrian refugees will not essentially change that relationship at all.

If I am right, then the fact that you're naming those numbers among the reasons against accepting 100,000 Syrian refugees probably indicates that you're really considering some other reason. It might be worth looking at what you were really thinking, and why you were using numbers that don't make your point to represent your point even to yourself.

Re: not wanting 100k more Muslims in the country: consider that, seeing as they're the ones leaving, they're certainly not the most radical or traditional ones, or they'd be joining up with ISIS instead of fleeing.

How are they supposed to actually get to Switzerland anyway without EU cooperation? Last I checked, Syria and Switzerland don't share a border and aren't connected by water.

Education. And jobs. Well-informed citizens busy with making a living generally don't have time to run around screaming "Allahu Ackbar!"

Personally, I don't care about 100'000 more or less people with a foreign passport. Lots of Swiss citizens DO care, however. And they should not be ignored. Nearly a quarter of our population consists of foreigners. This may not seem to be a problem for you as an educated and enlightened leftist, but for the average joe, this number is ridiculously high. Tribal instincts and all that stuff... "Das Boot ist voll"... und so.... In other European countries, the native population would riot.

My point is: Let them in... Despite all the problems. Letting them die would be a capitulation, a bitter shame and betrayal of our values as so-called civilized western nations.

We're all human beings, and these people aren't the threat. The people they are running from are. They are, for the most part, regular every day people who just want to live a normal life with their families and loved ones. What are the Swiss scared of?

The Swiss are scared of the same things people all around the globe fear: Strangers, foreigners, intruders, members of other "tribes". Losing their own identity... This is not a Swiss phenomenon, this is human nature. You don't have to understand or even like it, but most people prefer to live among their own kind and in the culture they are born into.

When I travel in the train and I am the only one who speaks German and when I am surrounded by women with scarfs and black robes who speak turkish, I feel uncomfortable and I ask myself if this is Istanbul.... Yeah, I am racist like that, sorry.

I do not like Islam, I don't see how this archaic cult enriches our culture. I don't want this certain kind of backward superstition to grow roots to gain influence, just like I don't want astrologists, evangelical Christians or Scientologists to gain political power. It's all the same shit to me, and Islam is a cult which is especially retarded and worthless, IMO. However, let these refugees in, they can't be blamed for being born in a certain culture. As you said, they are humans. We can deal with them, despite their superstition.

I realize all of that , but the 25% quote should really go in the pro column, since it clarifies that 100,000 Syrians will not change the situation essentially at all.

I'd be fine with very limited numbers of refugees being allowed into the west provided they can pass a background check, have a master's degree or higher, or a huge stack of money to invest. Everyone else? Fuck them, they're the problem of the Arab states and shouldn't be allowed in. We can send a modest amount of humanitarian aid and call it a day.

No, really Europe shouldn't. The Arab states are the ones who should be stepping in and the West should be minding it's own business and taking a secondary role of assisting the Arab states.

That might be arguable (only arguable) if the west hadn't already spent centuries interfering in the region.

This.

Also, even if someone else is responsible for making something happen that you want to happen, if you know they won't do it, it's up to you to make it so. That's a huge part of being an adult, incidentally.

That is meaningless fluff. It is time for them to grow up and pretend to be big boys and girls who at least attempt to solve their own problems. You don't some how "make up" for past interference by continuing to enable their bad behavior. They can either take care of their own problems or suffer and we won't make anything better for either them or us by trying to make their problems our problems.

Hell, I sure many would just see that as more interference.

Offer them nice terms to take refugees. Lebanon has taken in huge numbers for its size but no one has helped them feed or house them so they are now saying no more. I don't blame them.

The gulf states and North African states have done nothing meaningful. Arab people are the problem of the Arab states and not only should we not take them in but doing so is counter productive because it enables the Arab states to continue acting like children who wait for daddy to fix things for them.

If they want to be big boys without the west telling them what to do then they need to start doing things for themselves and that will not happen if the helicopter form colonial parents fly in to the rescue every time.

Can you explain how the refugees from the Assad regime and from ISIS are responsible for the "bad behaviour" of those groups?

I haven't said that. I said Arab states collectively need to start acting like big boys and girls who take care of their own problems. This means Arab states need to be the ones who take in their fellow Arabs and find either a peaceful solution or their own military solution but it is their problem not ours.

We can assist them with limited humanitarian aid but the burden is mainly theirs not ours.

So they should be taken in in the neighbourhood, but we should finance that? OK, I can get behind that, f logistically feasible. It's not what I think of when I hear people say "It's not our responsibility", though.

If Switzerland takes them in, they probably won't end up dispersed evenly throughout the population. For reasons of language, culture, background, economics, and the necessity to find them all housing in short order, they'll probably stay grouped together in what will become refugee neighborhoods, some of which will end up being no-go zones for the Swiss. Much the same has happened in a lot of European cities.

Second, are you taking in Christian, Druze, Alawite, and Shi'ite refugees, or Sunni refugees? It makes a big difference who you get, and especially what mix you get. I picked up some Iraqi Sunni neighbors who still rail against Shia, and many refugees who supported Assad would have a vicious hatred and fear of Sunnis. If you just want some excitement in Switzerland perhaps LA could send you some Crips and Bloods to fight over gang territories in Geneva.

If you're going to take anyone, how about taking in the extremely desperate Yazidi and Christian (Chaldean, Assyrian, etc) refugees, or some of the displaced Kurds? The Kurds would probably even go home as soon as things stabilize.

Finally, there's another risk to taking in 100,000 refugees, sight unseen. Once you get them settled in, what happens when they start asking about the rest of their families, since so many family members have been scattered all over the place, many already inside the EU? So then you're stuck with a bunch of heart-rending stories and the government bows to re-united their families (because who can be against families?) and you could end up with a heck of a lot more than 100,000.

BSG really ruined that name.

A solution needs to be found that is closer to Syria, so that some day (hopefully) they can return home. Large camps scattered throughout the developed world would likely become permanent ghettos, never a good idea. In region countries need to step up with some land for the camps, and wealthy countries need to step up with some funding.

Financial and fast logistical support for the camps on the borders may be far more reasonable than distributing the refugees all over Europe, that's for sure.

Nevertheless, help must come fast. It's urgent. There was a storm in Lebanon, even some snow fell. I don't get it why this huge disaster which can only be compared to the situation during WWII doesn't get much attention in the media. There are literally millions of refugees in these camps in Turkey, Lebabon and Jordan. Millions!

That is where they should be though. In neighboring countries most of whom haven't taken in a single refugee because they figure they never have to do anything and the West will just do it for them.

That needs to stop and it can't unless we stop enabling this irresponsible behavior.

I can't disagree. The rich states in the region are well-known for not giving a shit. Just look how decadent shitholes like Saudi Arabia or Quatar threat their foreign workers from the Philippines or Nepal. They are cruel slaveholders, at least they have a long tradition as slavetraders... But we can't change these assholes. And we should be better than them. We ARE better than them.

You can say: "Well, that's war, people die, sucks to be them." Especially when you have an ocean between you and these refugees. But as mentioned before, these refugees will find their way into Europe anyway in the long run. They will cross the Adria swimming if neccessary.

We can be better than them by giving humanitarian aid and pressuring Arab states to get off of their asses. We don't have to nor should we let them flush their toilets and dump their filth on us.

Before Europe steps up to the plate, maybe the rest of the Arab world should help out? Specifically the countries fanning the flames in the Syrian conflict, namely Saudi Arabia, the UAE, Qatar, and Iran?
The irony is that Turkey, Jordan and Lebanon have taken in almost 3 million (!) refugees between them and they had little to do with either starting or supporting this conflict. Well ok, Turkey has been allowing foreign fighters into the country through their border to help their containment policy towards the Kurds and Assad once the conflict had started, but the funding and support for ISIS and other groups looking to topple Assad has come squarely from the rich, Sunni Arab states who have taken in zero refugees. And Iran is on the other side by supporting Assad, have also taken in no refugees.

I have a great deal of sympathy for the Syrians who were doing ok and we hardly ever heard of Syrians seeking asylum before this shit blew up around them, and Europe is not blameless at all in this conflict seeing as we supported the initial rebellion against Assad. We should take in some refugees and help Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan manage the refugee crisis, but the mega rich Arab countries need to get their fingers out and start helping their 'brothers' too.

Lets take any and all aid various nations give to North Korea andinstead use it to help these people!