Refugees from Syria and stuff...

Das Boot ist voll?

That amended quote sums up my view of those who have opposition to helping refugees.

Refugees I have met and known have been people who just want a safe life and to be able to live without fear. There will be some criminals among them, as in any population, but the people fleeing often have good reasons for doing so and are subsequently more appreciative of the freedoms that our societies offer than many of those born into them are themselves.

I can only speak for my own country, but it is a sad fact that we often get the "wrong" refugees: Young, single men aged 17 - 25. They are the only ones who are strong and bold enough to manage the dangerous trip to Europe. Women with children or old people are rarely seen. And they are often from countries like Tunesia which are not warzones. And of course from African countries like Eritrea, Ghana and Nigeria, etc...

These young men clash with a culture which is completely alien to them. They are bored and disappointed that they don't get much money and have to live in small refugee camps with other people from around the globe. They discover the joys of cheap beer (problematic for young dudes from muslim countries...), see women who show some skin in public and visit shopping centres full of stuff they can't afford. They expect too much, nothing less than the land of milk and honey, which leads to frustration. They often don't leave a good impression with the locals with their behavior, to say the least. And all this feeds prejudice (including my own) and stereotypes and gives a completely false picture. These guys are NOT the average refugee (or even muslim) . And they are certainly NOT the people who need our help first.

Meanwhile, elderly people and young mothers with babies fight for survival in the refugee camps in Lebanon, etc...

It's complicated. How to deal with refugees has always been a hot topic in Switzerland, because so many seek asylum here. Switzerland still has this image of being so rich that everybody wants to come here. The land of the banks in which everybody is a billionaire, lol... How can whe help the people who are in real danger? Who should we give asylum? Who is in real danger and who is only trying to escape poverty? And is poverty not a good enough reason? Hunger kills, too... Should gays from certain African countries be let in or not, because they are in danger in their own countries? Or Roma from Eastern Europe? It's a thin line. Of course many other countries have to answer the same questions.

Switzerland is in the center of Europe. People from Syria rarely manage to arrive here, they are stranded in Lampedusa or even drown in the Adria. Sending food and tents might be the best solution. On the good side, even our most xenophobic rightwingers have come to the conclusion that refugees from Syria and Iraq must be allowed to enter. IF they make it to our borders...

(Sorry for the orthographical and grammatical mess. I really should stop posting from my phone.)

Generalising is dangerous.

I mentioned it in another thread earlier today, but the refugee I personally know best is one who is an unofficially adopted member of my girlfriends family. From Afghanistan, he fled when his father was abducted and it was made known to his family that as the other adult male he would be next. He spent a while being shuffled between various locations before finally making his way to Australia, where he has made a life for himself with a stable job. At the same time he still spends at least a couple of hours a day on Skype with his family and fiancee in Afghanistan, not knowing if he will ever be physically reunited with them.

Despite fitting that "wrong refugee" model of 17-25 male you established, he is both someone who needed to escape desperately, and appreciates the opportunities given.

It's almost a prisoners dilemma type situation when it comes to refugees. If all the well off Western countries agreed to help out generously, then none would have an extreme burden. Of course however they will always be an easy political target.

It's heartening to know that even your "xenophobic" politicians are supporting of a refugee policy that would be seen as left wing bleeding heart policy by the government here.

From @Jan Jansen 's OP:

Out of curiousity, how did this happen? What about the youth that need or want extra cash for college (which I'm assuming is free or heavy subsidized there) or older people who just want to feel productive in their old years?

There's not many security nets in America compared with most Western nations, so it's crazy that there's not any entry level jobs in retail or food service.

Then the Arab states can take them in. Stop trying to make the world's problems our problems especially since we can't take in tens of millions of culturally alien foreigners without lowering the quality of life in the west. Once they are here they will never go home and yet most of the time they don't want to culturally change either and instead demand our culture become more like the crap hole they just left.

They will be just fine in Egypt or Saudi Arabia or Algeria or a dozen other places so stop trying to pretend the only option is to bring them all here to sit on their butts and collect welfare for the rest of their lives. Just look at Sweden, they don't assimilate and for generations the refuse to learn the language, demand free housing and welfare while they just sit there committing crime. Is that all of them? No, but it is the MSJORITY of them. So much so Swedish police call the Muslim areas no go areas because the Arabs attack and try to kill them when ever they go in there.

Mean while rapes are through the roof because they think if a woman isn't muslim and she isn't wearing a burka then she deserves to be raped.

@Anna Good question, it deserves a book for an answer,... I'll try my best tomorrow when I can use my laptop.

@Bailey Your friend is a classic immigrant success story! Of course I used a broad brush, but keep in mind that you can't compare Australia to Switzerland. I'll give you an example which concerns Annas question, too: From the refugees from Eritrea who are given permanent refugee status after fife years in Switzerland (enough time learn German, etc...), only five percent are able to find a job and earn a living. The rest if them stays on welfare for the rest of their lives! Not because they are lazy or because the Swiss are more racist than others, but because the economy simply has no use for them. Lack of skills. The Swiss economy is brutal, competition among workers is extreme, only the most competitive can succeed. Even in low level entry jobs, which have become extreeeemely rare. (Thanks Anna for the term!). Perhaps your friend would have made it in Switzerland too, who knows... But only with a lot of luck, and if he is higly adaptive, is a quick learner is and blessed with some extraordinary talents. Swiss unemployment rate is low, salaries are high... Looks good on paper! Switzerland is a success story! The problem is: The numbers are a big lie. After you lose your unemployment benefits after a year, you get minimal welfare. And you drop out of the unemployment statistics. You cease to exist. Bad perspectives for immigrant success stories. And for my country in general.

I am for immigration of people who will make this place better and who are willing to culturally adapt. That won't happen with this group. So rather than creating generations of problems and an immense burden on taxpayers assist them by pressuring Arab states to take in their fellow Arabs. Europe can't afford millions of more dead beats when their economies are stagnant and they can't even provide services for the people already there.

Because of high regulations and a high minimum wage in much of western Europe the economy just hasn't grown much in decades. You see 40 year olds working what would be entry level jobs in the US because that is all their is in their area while all the young people are unemployed.

This is where the bleeding hearth what to resettle millions of people who don't speak the language, have a radically different culture, and who generally see themselves as superior by virtue of religion so they often really do refuse to change or adapt.

You want to see the rise of the right in Europe? Bring in millions of foreigners who will all sign up for welfare while the locals can't even find jobs and social services are already being cut due to austarity. People will vote for the far right just to stop the flood of refugees.

That is why it is better for them to be handled in the region where they are from. It makes no sense to let a dozen Arab states get away with not taking a single refugee and it will only enable their bad behavior if we try to take on the burden of their problems.

This is a non partisan source btw.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/world...need-body-armor-to-enter-violent-muslim-areas

Even firemen and paramedics need body armor to enter muslim neighborhoods because the imported barbarians have declared they will kill all nonmuslims.

http://10news.dk/horror-night-in-sw...d-until-bleeding-with-a-gun-gang-raped-again/

Rape and violent crime is through the roof. Unemployment is overy 80%, largely because almost none of them bother to learn the language despite free classes being offered and instead virtually everyone just is on welfare and lives in welfare housing.

That is how taking them in will end up. Let the Arab states take them in.

^ That also makes them extremely easy to radicalize, because an imam can just walk in and explain that all their problems are because of... Christians, Jews, heathens, gays, and those imperialist Westerners who are a stench in the nostrils of Allah.

No dinner, it's because of neoliberalism... The employers don't give a a fuck about the locals. Swiss employers hire young Germans to replace the older locals, because they work for less. The state can take care of the losers of the system, and the employers count their money. In Germany, Germans are replaced by Polacks. And so on... The immigrants are the culprits for the locals of course, but the problem is homemade.

It's an ugly game. In Switzerland, the middle class will cease to exist soon. And it's certainly not the fault of evil immigrants. They are victims, too. They will be replaced after a few years when they are not productive anymore and when younger, even more desperate immigrants will be ready for exploitation.

Make it profitable to run businesses in Europe as well as easier to hire and fire workers and you will find more companies willing to hire people. Make it so that it isn't competitive to hire people and they won't hire people.

You don't have to be the cheapest but you do have to be in the ball park and if they can't easily lay people off when demand decreases they won't hire when demand increases because they know they will never be able to get rid of them when the cycle heads down.

Wow, free market fundamentalism... Deregulation! What a revolutionary concept! This may work in a parallel universe, but certainly not in Europe 2015 with an aging population, the EU and its different economies which compete among themselves via taxes and incomes, low growth and not enough jobs because we destroyed our industry and made China our work bench instead. And numerous other reasons.

Switzerland doesn't educate enough doctors, nurses and engineers, for example. It's far too expensive, let us import Germans instead! Makes sense from the capitalist viewpoint, of course. The brain drain in Germany doesn't bother us. And why should small Swiss businesses hire and educate young locals and not fire 45 years old fathers with two children, when there are thousands of unemployed and desperate, but well-educated Spaniards and Greek are more than happy to work for almost nothing? The state will take care of the Swiss. If not, so be it. Free market! Social Darwinism! This will end well...

Ah well, too much ot, let us bash muslims instead.

You guys can either change or keep getting the stagnation you've gotten for the last 30 years. Liberalizaton actually worked decently in the UK even though they didn't do it enough.

Fine, I will send a copy of "Adam Smith for Dummies" to Brussels. Europe will recover in no time!

You and gturner confuse two different things:

Muslim immigrants cause quite a lot of trouble in cities like Stockholm, that's for sure. Swedens' immigration policy was naive. And yes, there is ghettobuilding, abuse of welfare, crime etc... Some people will say that's all the Swedes' own fault because they were not welcoming enough, but that's a little bit naive. We had a massive wave of Tamils from Sri Lanka in the 80ies, and these guys adapted just fine. No crime, they all started building a new existence from day one on and are completely accepted today. The guys from Kosovo on the other hand... Still quite a lot of trouble with these people. However, even the people from Kosovo don't cause massive problems. Many of them are a nuisance, but not more. We learnt to get along with each other during the years. Most of them are ok. And they are excellent soccer players!

The immigration of EU citizens has a far bigger impact. And these people are demanded by the economy leaders. They work hard, they are young and motivated, and they are happy with small pay. Until they find out how extremely high living costs are around here... For the reasons mentioned above, the Swiss economy profits from them when you look at the naked numbers. Ne need to educate our own people, a cheap work force... But the Swiss average Joe is replaced by them when he gets older. in Switzerland, a 45 year-old is considered being slow, not dynamic enough, needing too much rest... It's rather bizarre. And our own economy leaders introdruced this madness! To save costs... They betray their own people. In Swiss hospitals, doctors and nurses are mostly from Germany. Plumbers, people working in the gastronomy and retail, many East Germans and Austrians. Border workers are the biggest issue. Our dear job creators love them for obvuous reasons. The Swiss are too expensive.... And all this to save some bucks.... Swiss employers are cold as ice. This problem has a far bigger inpact on the lives of the Swiss citizens than any issues with immigrants from muslim or other countries combined. To say it again: I don't blame the immigrants from EU countries! If I was a nurse in Germany and earned 2'500 Euro or even less, I'd move to Switzerland, too. And the work conditions are not even comparable.

Even in a liberalized economy you have to invest heavily in infastructure to keep the economy efficient and in education so workers can be as productive as possible. The reason most of the American south always does so poorly despite low wages is because they don't do this. The innovations which disrupt traditional business models is where the largest profits come from and to innovate you need both educated workers and access to capital both things the south does not do well. This is why despite the right wing 5alking points decade after decade the innovation (and booming new businesses like Google, Apple, facebook, etc...) all seem to come from the same few states.

The liberalized economy is just the basics while spending heavily on education and infastructure is how you keep ahead of the competition instead of just being a me too economy which is the first to get outsourced when a cheaper place pops up.

Like I said, being cheapest isn't what is most imporant (there are other factors like quality of labor supplied, infastructure, legal frame work, access to capital, etc...) but you do have to still be in the same ball park as there is a limit to how expensive you can be and still be competitive.

Depends on your definition of 'worked'

We certainly needed to bust open the closed union shops, and have achieved that, however we've been utterly unprepared the consequence of mass immigration on youth unemployment and low skilled workers.

Europe only has it worse because, well because they're idiots hellbent on expanding their pseudo-empire whilst centralising power and starting to discover that hinterlands are not necessarily geographic in nature.

We're not far behind France in the rise of the genuine right (the Conservatives are anything but, especially under Cameron) and none of the parties are really prepared to show how much we depend on immigration, nor willing to come up with some sensible solutions (for example, the income tax allowance is universal, essentially subsidising immigrant workers, which makes for a saner target than benefits alone.)

And of course there is the amusing fact there are oodles of low-paid (as in much lower than the legal minimum wage) jobs, albeit within some of the more settled immigrant communities, that no one is particularly interested in prosecuting the existence of, even though they add to the unemployment figures (they may work for £2 an hour, but they're still drawing unemployment benefits). I'm not against that model (in fact I'm a proponent of a UBI, or reverse income tax, and the binning of the minimum wage) but I'd prefer the politicians to man up about it rather than condemn businesses trying to dodge the minimum in one breath, then cosying up to groups ignoring it in order to woo their vote in the next.

and