Here's an easy way to further shrink the prisons after you've repealed most of the vice laws and a way to pretty much eliminate juvenile detention centers. If a small child commits a misdemeanor, the parents are publicly lashed and required to pay restitution equal to any and all damages pursuant to the crime. If a teenager commits a misdemeanor, the parents and the child are publicly lashed and required to pay restitution equal to any and all damages pursuant to the crime. If an adult commits a misdemeanor, the adult is publicly lashed and required to pay restitution equal to any and all damages pursuant to the crime. Don't like it? Don't have children. Maybe now you'd think twice before tossing your boy the keys on a friday night so he can pal around with his buddies.
Rehabilitation is a joke. I can tell you that from working inside a jail. Once you start on the criminal path forever will it dominate your destiny, consume you it will, as it did Obi-Wan's apprentice. The reality is that the family structure has to be fixed. You all talk about gangbangers but only two of us on this board experience them on a regular basis. Me and Elwood. I see them every day I work. Not sure how many times they come into contact with Elwood. They know nothing except crime. They don't have good education skills. They are tattooed all over the place. You can't save them. Their life is over. I see the same people coming into the jail on a regular basis. There are officers who've known inmates for over twenty years because those inmates keep coming back. To put an end to this madness you have to start from birth. Children must be raised to respect their family (which leads to a respect of other people). Boys especially must have a father. Mothers are unable to discipline boys without screwing them up mentally. It's got to be a father in the home to do it. I don't care how many of you might howl otherwise but single mothers do not do a good job raising boys. The way these gangbangers talk to their own mothers with filthy language and attitude is an indication that there was a failure to raise the child properly. What's funny though is how fast these "momma's boys" will call up mommy and cry. Then mommy will call saying her son, the guy in jail for gangbanging and killing someone, is in fear for his life or some such nonsense. Don't bother with rehabilitation as it is a waste of money.
And in the case of single mothers the father of the child should get triple the lashes for not being there to help raise the child. Ten times the number of lashes if the child is a boy.
My regulars are the children of my dad's regulars. The problem being, dad only had to deal with Charlie. I'm dealing with the six kids Charlie managed to spawn before he drank himself to death. There's one guy we've been dealing with for so many years the magistrate has issued a standing order. If Ben sees a police officer, he's to cross the street and go in the other direction, because if we lay eyes on him, he's going to jail for three days on a week's suspended sentence. Politics and crime have two of the same drawbacks. My old boss used to comment on local politics by saying, "Nothing will change in this town until there are 100 funerals." The problem though is that those 100 funerals have come and gone, but nothing has changed because the children have taken up their parent's behavior.
The problem with the hundred funerals is you need all 100 to happen at the same time and before they have kids. It's crazy. I've seen people get released and be back within an hour or two. I've seen children get brought in for visitation. Boys and girls. Some as young as an infant. I just shake my head at the thought that their pathetic excuse of a dad is sitting on the other side of that glass because he's a criminal and for all this talk about raising the kid right daddy will be in prison or dead or off screwing some other lady when he gets out. The kid will never get raised right and will probably end up like dad. In jail. Oh and I would like to add to the lash list.... When a cop shoots a thug (legally of course) and he dies anyone who comes out in support of that thug family or otherwise saying, "he was a good boy. he was trying to turn his life around" or some other such nonsense should get strung up and lashed as well.
Oh, and all of this is happening amidst plenty of advantages to get yourself out of the cycle. Starting in middle school and going through high school, all the schools offer "no cost to the student" sports programs after school. For the younger kids, the city sponsors youth football, baseball, soccer and basketball. Every neighborhood has it's own library and public recreation center with swimming pool and basketball court. Every neighborhood has it's own park with playground, baseball, football, and soccer facilities. Every library holds workshops for various ages and abilities. They even employ part-time resident artists and supply workshops for children to express their talents in those areas. We even have a small but efficient public transportation system that will carry kids to these things at no cost to them. Yet even in this near ideal environment, crime is still increasing. Part of it is because inside every little boy's mind, their daddy is Superman and even though he may be the literal scum of the earth, he's perfect in their eyes and part of them seeks to emulate him. It's time we hold parents accountable, and if that means I have to start strapping dads and moms to posts on the courthouse square, so be it.
I'm sure little Adolf Hitler and his sister Aryan Nation would agree. But if they grew up to be racist Klansmen spewing shit about how coons need to be strung up by their bootstraps like they were in the good ol' days, I ain't gonna cry buckets of tears if they get the shit kicked out of them. A bad childhood is a reason for their actions. It's not an excuse. I'd be willing to bet most of these women don't get or don't know what respect is, and thus can't show that to their sons. If you live in an urban area, I doubt most of these women had father figures themselves, so how could they know what a man should be? (I'll refrain from knee jerking here ) Basically, it boils down to parent accountability, as Elwood and Zombie have said. Single mothers who had the kid are no less exempt from this. Your kids didn't choose to be here and if you were stupid enough to give birth to this kid thinking Daddy will straighten up the moment Junior arrives, don't whine and bitch about having double the stress and headache when he doesn't man up. What's confounding is how many women will keep on getting knocked up by the same loser over and over again!
Depends on how the abused kills the abuser. If they do it defending themselves, the law automatically considers it defensive in nature and, justifiable homicide. If, however, they plan to stop the abuser and more or less ambush the person, it becomes premeditated murder. As far as what a child is taught, children have the internet, the TV and even school (if they bother to go and LISTEN) to learn that the gang way of life is NOT the way to live.
Continued discipline however does. And I have found that kids that have to clean up after their own messes do manage to learn damned fast not to let the dog mess in the house.
Only if said camps make it clear to the kids that their potential to make a living at said sports are about the same as someone winning the lottery several times in a row.... Otherwise they are going to think they can become the next Michael Jordan, Mohammed Ali, Football star ... and be pretty pissed at the universe when they don't make it.
I'm for rehabilitation. And it so happens that those systems which concentrate on rehabilitation are those with less crime.
Well, first you have to have someone who wants to be rehabilitated. I can tell you for a fact that someone who does not believe they are at fault, that they need rehabilitation, will not be rehabilitated no matter how much you work with them. So your system will only work if the folks are willing to work with it.
I get what you're saying yet there is a big difference between understanding behavior and accepting behavior. I can understand a wide variety of reasons why you'd steal a car but stealing cars is not acceptable behavior. If you want to blame the environment for crime then attack environmental problems, be proactive, excusing the result is only justifying the behavior.
The need for adult public schooling only highlights the failure of our public schools for children. Free education is provided from age five to eighteen, thirteen years to convey simple morality isn't enough time? If you want boot camp style discipline then make that a possibility before a student becomes an adult. Else you create a situation where one must commit a crime before getting the education they need.
If you don't know society frowns upon theft after 18+ years on the planet then you need a time-out at the iron bar hotel to drive the point home.
I had multiquoted a number of posts, but then it just got too many. However, Elwood and Zombie, you have illustrated exactly what I was trying to say. It's environment. And, I'm not in favor of forcibly removing children from a home - although, like Alphaman said, outreach programs for at risk kids are excellent tools. But, once that child is 18ish and committed their first "adult" crime, instead of putting that child in a modern day prison - where all they'll learn is to be a better criminal - do you think it might be helpful to put them into a different kind of facility? A facility that re-teaches them to adapt to and live in society? If they're then go out and repeat the offense, then throw 'em in prison, but do you not think they at least deserve a chance?
First off eighteen years old is not a child, second if rehabilitation is your goal why are you excluding "adults"?
So 18yos have all the rights and privileges that other adults do? Also in some states, 19 is the age where one is granted MOST of the legal rights of an adult. In Alabama it is the age where you can buy smokes and can sign a contract.
Hey I'm not going to dig in my heels over the difference between being eighteen and nineteen. Either could be considered the age of adulthood. Point being the arbitrary line must be drawn somewhere, nearing two decades of living should be enough time to learn theft is a no go. Personally I'd like the line of adulthood to be a clear separation from childhood in every regard. Buying tobacco, joining the military, entering contracts, getting your drivers license, voting, marrying, buying booze, every adult privilege, responsibility and liability given at a specific age. I've no problem with you saying nineteen is the appropriate age.
Well, when I was a 13 year old with behaviour issues, they sent me to a military themed school. When I was 17, I was involved in a fight that resulted in a slightly longer period as a guest of correctional services. All I learned from the former was that authority depended on me fearing it, and that this fear was based on threat of physical discomforts or humiliations. Along with this, came the need not to conform to mediocrity, as the "chain is only as strong as the weakest link". Individuality was actively discouraged, resulting in lowered ambitions and unpursued inspirations. A few years later, and I found myself in the stone hotel for 18 months. The interceding years had put me in touch with several youth workers and their organizations. Family breakdown in part from the complete lack of authority my parents now had... not like they could make me do PT instead of eating lunch. I did a bit of time on the street before jail. Anyways, the workers... One of them lived fairly close by and would stop in at least twice a month. (He'd gone on to become a CO at a different institution...technically not a visitor ) A few of the others made repeat visits for any number of reasons, but all had the result of boosting my spirits. Then there was the educational program. Rather than skating through general levels, the two semi retired teachers there encouraged me to reach for the challenge of advanced levels. I upgraded my HS english and history in their entirety while tutoring others... Even received an award for an essay in a province wide competition. "Boot camp" simply made me fearless of an impersonal authority. Literally beat or humiliated it out of me and taught me might as right. Surprisingly, even the food chain of a jailhouse setting allowed me to learn the benefit of achievement in place of aggression.
Don't you get it? Haven't you seen what has been written already? By 18 its too late. At 18 you are an adult and need to pay the adult price. Having many friends in law enforcement, having done ride alongs, having listened and observed when in the communities both poor and rich, I'd say by age 6 its probably close to or already too late for a majority. As its been said, rehabilitation isnt the key. For the most part it does not work. Sure there are some success stories, but they are the exception, not the rule. If you want to make a difference, if you want to reduce the crime rate, you basically have to get a generation of parents to be and some how get through their thick skulls that they are about to be parents, not friends of the life they are about to bring into the world, and that they should act accordingly, that they have a responsibility to make sure that they raise a responsible child that will be an asset to society, not a burden. They should not be afraid of being stern or instilling these values through discipline (but abuse isnt allowed either). But even then, even if every parent did a fantastic job, you will still have some bad apples that just wont get it. For them, there is no hope of rehabilitation.
Read my post again, notice the word, kids. I'm not really going to argue the merits of adult rehabilitation; I think in some cases it can work, but in most it will not. Which leads to the question - why give them any sort of parole or anything else other than a bullet? If as a society we deem someone unfit and unable to be rehabilitated, then why send them to jail where they'll learn more skills and spend the rest of their lives out only as long as they can avoid being caught for their crimes? Also, public schools don't really teach morality - I didn't have any sort of ethics class until college, though I don't know how all districts do things. The unfortunate thing is that sometimes someone does actually have to commit a crime to get a shot at a decent life in our system; we presume individuals innocent, we presume individuals are moral, and we presume individuals are rational until proven otherwise. I'd hate to live in a system where the reverse was true and whoever was in power determined such things by way of a test or some government sponsored program. Which leads back to why public schools shouldn't be teaching morality in the first place! That leaves us with failed parents, of which there are so many. You can't just target the "fathers" (as if some 16 year old boy is even remotely prepared to be a father in our society). You have to go after the girls as well - easy contraceptives, easy abortions (fuck you all, you'd wait 18 years before the kid is a criminal to kill him after he's ruined countless lives), better self-control and self-worth, etc. There's so many other aspects of this that the dried out catch phrases and singular arguments presented on the topic are just that; nobody (myself included) in this thread presents enough logic to defend a position in the overall system of criminal punishment/rehabilitation. However the topic was started around minors, which is where I'm trying to focus my points.
I agree with that, but my point was that right now 'the law' doesn't have a clear distinction of at what age someone is an adult. For somethings it's 16, others 17, most 18 or 19 and then one 21. Before we can start saying he is an adult, he is a child, and using that to determine their punishment under the law, that issue needs to be addressed.
Notice the line between kids and adults isn't clear. Or simply put when should boot camp style discipline camps be an option?
Oh, bullshit. Your narrow experience doesn't represent the entire human race. Plenty of single parents of either gender are able to successfully raise children of either gender, and they don't need the discouragement of ignorant overgeneralizations like that.
Um, I don't think the 'punishment' aspect exists in the British penal code. It's all rehabilitation followed by repeat offences once 'rehabilitation' is complete.
Almost always for non-violent crimes, including "adults" Generally for Battery and Armed Robbery, including "adults" Rarely for other violent crimes, including "children"
