You're intentionally avoiding the point, which isn't that an executed or incarcerated individual prisoner can commit more crime, but that a system which concentrates on rehabilitating prisoners rather than punishing them tends to lead to less overall crime in the long run. Like it or not, there are effects on society beyond "removing the filth from the streets" of how prisoners are treated.
Except I don't insist that very many of them ever live another day of freedom. How about the fact that they have rejected all of society's efforts up to that point?
How so? really? Show me. Cuz I've researched this very subject and could find little or not information about actual rehabilitation of prisoners. Well, that's an easy fix. Don't make it a choice between rehab and lazing around all day. Start off with low level jobs. the better they do, the higher they rise on the 'better jobs' scale.
Are you gonna stack your bullshit scenario and assume they never encountered anyone but negligent parents and juvenile delinquent neighbor kids? No other adults, no teachers, cops, librarians?
I'm saying that parents are the first line of defense (offense?). the point is, if a child grows up in a house where one or both parents engage in criminal behavior, the child will also.
No, goddamn it. People are not helpless victims of environment and circumstance. That it might be harder to do right is not an excuse to do wrong. Unless they're literally in total isolation, there is usually some semi-decent role model to clue them into the fact that the might want to get their shit together before they wind up in prison. Taking what is perceived to be the easy/stylish/rebellious way out is a choice, and choices have consequences.
I'm not saying they don't have a choice. I'm not saying they can't take responsibility for their actions. And I'm not saying it's an excuse. Why does everything have to come down to that for you? It's not easy to remove oneself from that kind of environment. Most human beings cannot do it on their own. So, why are you so hellbent on not giving it to them? Why do you feel they are so undeserving of help from society?
You just want to give them more chances than they deserve, and at my expense. I want my money spent making them suffer for what they've done. Down to what? Actions and consequences above all else? Because that is the price of true individual freedom, and I want that more than a prosperous society filled with people who get to feel good about themselves for their compassionate treatment of those with a less fortunate upbringing. Bullshit. Adapting to adversity is one of our greatest strengths. It's just that we've grown weak, lazy, and complacent, succombing to a mentality of unconditional entitlement because people like you are always working to shelter us from consequence. I don't think anything should be "given" to anyone. Because they have committed crimes against society. It's not that fucking hard to understand.
No, Albert. That's not it. It's because society has changed. Not only do they need to adapt, but so do you. It's not about 'entitlement', it's about helping out someone who wasn't as fortunate as you.
Oh bullshit. Now you are going on the "I have no rational data to back up my position so let me try the emotionalism passed off as fact to try to win my point". Typical . Tell you what, how about getting to know what goes on in the system. How about finding out how many outreach programs there have been and continue to be. How about studying the matter instead of relying on your knee jerk reaction. Nah, cant happen with you. You have your own special view of the universe and no matter what anyone says you will never ever change your mind. Its the same old song with you like the last thread where you posited that anyone could get off the grid just by snapping their fingers, or how about the one where you thought that primitive cultures were the paragon of environmental stewardship, equal rights among the sexes and low incidents of violence (I.e. the false paradise culture bullshit put out about Native Americans). You have had individual who work in the field every day tell you that you are WRONG. You've had individuals whose initial degrees tell you that you are WRONG, but yet you go on and on that you MUST be right. For you to even being to admit that you were wrong would cause your world to crumble instead of learning and getting out of your own comfort zone. For the record I wished to all hell that rehab programs work. The reality though is that the majority are unsalvageable and only a few will see the programs for what they are and use them to turn their lives around. That is what is known as a FACT backed up by data set after data set after data set. If you want to see the data then start your research with the FBI. and thus the feelings of jealousy and inadequacy finally come out in spades. At least Dan or Henry try to base their arguments in fact or an interpretation of them. Again, bullshit. You want to better your life, then bust your ass and carefully consider your choices and not only the short term, but also the long term consequences to them. If you choose poorly then its on your ass and no one elses. I wasnt talking about mental therapy. I was talking about jobs retraining. Then you are a liar. You havent researched shit because there is volumes out there to base your research on. Start with the FBI reports. Then look up the reports and studies by criminologists. Ok so now you are advocating a more brutal prison system and draconian rules. Great. Now get into specifics.
Kids choose other kids to hang out with based on their own interests. Thus, if a kid has a wild/criminal side, he will find other hooligans and they spur each other on. I'll bet for every hooligan in the neighborhood, there are five good kids...but the bad kids don't want to be with them, and the cycle continues. Thus, we make our own circumstances in many cases. You will find what you seek, Grasshopper.
Tell you what, tomorrow evening, if this thread is still going, I'll try to find my research paper and post as much of it as I can. Stomp your feet all you like, but I did look for evidence, one way or the other, to support which system worked best. The only thing I found on rehabilitation/job training had something like a 30 percent drop in recividism. But, the author noted that the program was not near extensive enough to get a full idea of just how much rehabilitation and job training can do. In the mean time, please, find me something to the contrary, cuz I had a devil of a time finding what I did.
Many folks did get jobs and life skills in prison. They became lawyers and demanded "better treatment" for the incarcerated. In others words the gyms, the idea that a prison could not be 100% full. Sorry, they didn't learn anything that was beneficial to the rest of society, only for the society they belonged to.
Well, you still have to have a WILLING participant for the system to work. Ask anyone who has undergone any kind of rehab: alcoholics, drug addicts, gamblers, you name it. In order for the rehabilitation to work, the person has to want to be rehabilitated, and that usually takes the person hitting a very low level. Until they reach a point that they understand that this is it - they change or they die - they are not going to be rehabilitated. No matter how much you stamp your feet and demand that it be so.
Not today's jails and prisons. They are built not for punishment but for spending as little money as possible. And the reality is that short of putting one man in one cell 24 hours a day you will always have an inmate hierarchy. And contrary to belief what you are charged with is meaningless, unless you are convicted of a sex crime or are a homosexual. It's based on strength. Plenty of sociopaths and murderers are not the "top dog" because they can't fight or lack the ability to lead. Yes I said lead. But of course no one wants to spend the money it would take to put one man one cell nor pay the costs after the person gets out and is mentally damaged from such isolation. Until someone builds holodecks, from Star Trek, where a prisoner can be in a cell and still have others around but never be in fear of being attacked (as each other prisoner is in their own holodeck cell..think giant holodeck LAN party) or anything else it will not change.
Gyms? Where? You don't see gyms except in a few prisons. Most don't have them. I know of no jail that has them. Yeah....real smart idea let's give dumbbells and 45lb Olympic bars and weight plates to a bunch of crooks. No way they will use them on anyone else as a weapon.... And they didn't become lawyers. You can't become a lawyer while in prison. You can know the law to a high degree but you still need a real attorney to fight your case for you. And I got news for you prisons and jails can be and do go beyond 100% full.
I didn't think law schools accepted applicants with a criminal past. Or were you referring to the self-lawyering that Zombie mentioned?
REHABILITATION DOESN'T WORK! "OK Tercel, first we're going to teach you to read and write, some basic arithmetic, and how to make change. Then we're going to teach you some life skills, like how to get up in the morning and show up for work every day, how to say "please" and "thank you" and not speak in "Ebonics". When we're done with all that you should be more than qualified to get a job making fries at a McDonalds for $5.25 an hour. Granted, the manager is more likely to hire a 15 year old kid than a crack dealer, but you might get lucky." "Or I could sell crack and make a couple thousand every week and spend my time watching cartoons and lifting weights."
If I could I'd show you the writings of criminals in my jail. Very few have the education to write properly. I don't mean they make simple mistakes either. If they wrote a paper and handed it in it would get an automatic F grade as that is how bad it is. On top of that no one is going to hire the majority of these people. It's not going to happen. Especially after they get tattoos all over their faces. Once that happens it's all over. You might as well lock them up for life.
sorry wrong term JAIL HOUSE lawyer. they can still argue cases in a court of law. Unlike England, in the US you don't have to be a barrister to present a case in court
As schooled in law as these guys are real lawyers take over these cases as they wind their way through the system. Real lawyers know the ins and outs of various judges and courts and real lawyers have real experience that jailhouse lawyers don't. On top of that inmates are not going to get out of prison to go to court to represent themselves. (if they did then all prisoners would be demanding to do so) It's one thing at your own trial. You are already there. But once the appeals process starts rolling you won't be there. The same goes for lawsuits. You won't be arguing it in front of a judge. You will have a lawyer or you won't have a case.
Oh and reality is that as a jailhouse lawyer you might have a notion of the law but you won't have the ability to really research your facts. For that you need again real lawyers.
This is what I'm talking about. There is no way someone with this description is going to get a job and live within society when they get out of prison. And the 'get out of prison with a degree in law' ... only happens on tv.
