Survey: Many believe in divine intervention

http://www.cnn.com/2008/HEALTH/08/18/god.vs.doctors.ap/index.html?iref=mpstoryview

I've heard it said there are no atheists in foxholes. When it comes right down to it, would the atheists here pray for their loved ones? Of course, there's also the question of whether God (the Christian God, not the generic one here) hears prayers from unbelievers...

discuss...

That's the kind of response I was expecting. But really, Dan, how many people routinely practice praying for a stranger's health? And, does one really expect an impersonal petition to have all that much effect?

Some studies even have patients fare worse when they know people are praying for them; the implication can be that they are in desperate need of help.

And yet to answer the question in the OP, this atheist has been known to light candles in a local church when loved ones undergo surgery. I think I do it as a kind of self-administration, not unlike meditation, to provide me with a symbol of what's going on. But of course part of the reason why that works is that parts of me remember my Catholic upbringing and still function as if it were all true...

I would think the psychology of it would work in reverse as well. Some people who would prefer to be prayed for may wind up feeling worse if they think know one is praying. Of course, that would delve more into the mental than the spiritual but there is, has to be, a pretty strong tie-in there.

From the Christian perspective, I don't think it really matters whether you're "worthy" of intervention. Jesus sacrifice for our sins had nothing to do with our worthiness and, in fact, was made necessary because we can't show ourselves worthy. Making the same point about whether we can earn a miracle for our physical bodies seems to be only a short step.

Even if one deems another families beliefs mistaken it's a wrongness to try and argue that point while they're finding comfort in their faith.

Plenty of time to spread the atheist word no need to include grieving family members in the audience.

Good point - the most important thing is to try to provide comfort during a tough time.

It's a shame that, as the conclusion of a good, interesting, and valid article, you post a conclusion that is merely your opinion and has nothing to do with the article. The article is about prayers said for a person by people who don't know them and without that person's knowledge. Even as a firm believer in prayer, I would not have expected that form of prayer to produce any measurable results and the research confirms that it does not. But to draw a general conclusion on all types of prayer from that is about as unscientific an approach as you could want.

But then, I really wouldn't expect a scientific approach from you where anything having to do with religion is concerned. The whole area, for you, is one ruled by dogmas and preconceptions. You have in fact an attitude that is very similar to the most religious in this area.

The number of logical errors in your statement is amazing. But see my previous post with regard to your attitude where anything having to do with religion is concerned...

There is no room for doubt in my mind that a major portion of the measurable effects of prayer are ultimately a "placebo effect." That says nothing either way about whether divine intervention happens (even when the placebo effect does come into play), but it shows that the effect of prayer is not always what people think it is.

Of course, there isn't a "generic" god. However, there are dozens that predate this one that are wise enough to understand that a prayer is a prayer, and that the name (or lack of) it's addressed to in a language that didn't exist a millenium ago is of far less importance than the intention.

I see absolutely nothing in response to prayer that is arbitrary.

Why do you assume it is arbitrary?

Have you seen any results of prayer that you would classify as arbitrary? If so, I would be interested in hearing about them.

Wow. That contradicts everything I've been taught about prayer.
I've been told that if you pray for something long enough, and God agrees with you, then your prayers will come true.
So you can pray for someone a million miles away, without them knowing it, and God will intervene and save them.

So I thought Dan was pretty much spot-on in pulling up that article. There are many people where I live who would refuse to believe that research, and who would start praying for the "lost" researchers to believe in God.

Problem with doing it the other way around is that you can't separate any supernatural effect of the prayer from the perfectly natural positive mental effect of the patient knowing that someone cares enough about them to take time to say a prayer.

Would you say you'd expect prayer to be effective if it was someone the patient knew but the patient wasn't aware they were being prayed for?

Not all spiritual healing methods are the same. For example, methods like Reiki have plenty of studies showing they do have an effect on healing rates not accounted for by placebo effect. I suspect that if Christian prayer methods aren't working, it's because the vast majority of those praying are just tossing words out to the ether, without sending any spiritual energy out to back them up.

Survey: Many people are stupid

Really? Who's putting up the million? James Randi? Last time I looked, he was only interested in straight faith healing.

I believe in "intervention" but not neccessarily divine:

that there is a weird pattern/mathematical formula formula and what we consider "divine" is neccessary, but we can't really comprehend it at the human level. Sometimes we get little glimpses......things we can't explain (miracles, revelations if you will) that happen to all people in all cultures.
IMO this is what spawns religions. There is a deeper reality and people need to humanize it (spin it into their own belief system).

I myself have had a couple of experiences that cannot be explained away
so I know time and space are very fluid indeed. But we can't test it scientifically because it's a random (appearing) pattern.

That's why I don't believe in "bad luck" per se. Everything does happen for a reason, but it has zero to do with good versus evil.

If it hasn't happened yet to you (personal experience with time/physics defying experience) you just can't really believe in it.
But if and when it happens you'll know it, and it will hit you like a lightning bolt out of the blue.

If nobody believes you don't sweat it...you know the truth so you have nothing to prove.

Apparently Randi doesn't agree. Nonetheless, there's enough to some of these methods that standardization and competency testing methods are having to be developed so the state can have a licensing standard.

Anyone who prays is not an athiest.

That's one of the things I like about you, Async. You can "man up" enough to admit that placebos do work but that doesn't discount the fact that the real medicine works as well.

Then there are x number of people who are walking around with a distorted world view?