We've all read or participated in the debate about transgendered access to bathrooms. I'm firmly of the opinion that somebody should use the bathroom associated with their self-determined gender identity. I'm even more firmly of the opinion that bathrooms should be unisex, but that's a bit of a side issue. At any rate, I can't recall much discussion about locker or changing rooms. Here's a WSJ Op/Ed regarding recent changes to Massachussetts non-discrimination law. Much of it is the usual claptrap that questions the validity of transgendered status, and argument about whether any accommodation ought to be made for such a small population. But then it raises the locker room issue. And my first reaction was, yeah, that could prove awkward. Then I though, I wonder how many boys will try to claim transgender status in order to get inside the girls' shower room. And then I thought, nope, obvious red herring. Here's a bit from the meat of the question: So what is the sense of Wordforge?
I'm not in favor of self-determined biology. That's not how biology works. A similar phenomenon would be someone "identifying" as a reptile instead of a mammal. Reality just does not give a shit about your delusion. Until such time as your anatomy matches your self-determined identity, you show some self respect and acknowledge the world that exists beyond your solipsistic little bubble.. After the anatomy matches, all well and good. Until it does, you show some consideration for your fellow human beings, understand that they see the anatomy and not your internal dialogue, and use the plumbing that matches your plumbing.
This. It may uphold a double standard, but for practical purposes, transgendered folks should just use the guy's room.
And let's clarify this: an "anatomical male" is a male. Period. "Male" is an anatomical description. There's no kind of male other than an "anatomical male", so that description is redundant and nonsensical. Teenage girls don't like boys using the girls' room. Teenage boys, no matter how girlie they might think they are, should stay the fuck outta there until they get their junk chopped off and the stump remodeled.
And by the way, Nova, I hope you don't take offense at that. I think you're an awesome character and a sharp wit. As a person -- all considerations of biological versus psychological gender aside -- I think you're the bee's knees. My beef here is not with your identity or your life choices -- rather, it's a stand in defense of objectivism versus solipsism. A person can't simply decide that he's a parking meter and expect people to stuff coins in his mouth. A man can't simply decide that he's a woman and expect the rest of the world to forget that he isn't one. Granted: I've read and understood what you've said -- from your perspective, it's not a decision; it's a realization. But you also have to look at it from the third party's point of view -- we don't feel that feeling. A few of us will reach out, intellectually, and come to understand how you could have that feeling -- but we'll never share it. To us, dealing with material reality, you're a guy. And you're always going to be a guy until such time as you get the ol' sausage-chop-and-vagoo-sculpting. What Nova is going through, the HRT, the surgery (whenever that happens, I'm not up on that) is an acknowledgement of those realities. My complaint is with those who refuse to acknowledge those realities, those who think their own insistence ought to be enough to cause the world to bow to their own solipsistic perceptions. (Edited for clarification.)
I reluctantly agree with this, despite being a big proponent of people doing pretty much what they want. Letting this guy into a women's locker room is going to do nothing but cause a lot of problems at a time when the kids should be concerned with their studies, dating, etc...
Think of it not so much as self-determination, and more as self-awareness. I tend to think that any pre-op transgendered person wouldn't feel at all comfortable in the "physiologically wrong" changing room, because the lack of correct anatomy would be excessively emphasized. But at the same time, how appropriate is it for them to change in the room where people appear to be the same, if they are trying to live a life as the other gender? This is clearly quite different from the bathroom issue, because the level of privacy in a bathroom is much higher. I think the only workable solution is a private facility.
Transgenders typically exist on a spectrum of genders and have been known to switch back and forth. Maybe the safest thing is a 3rd bathroom for people comfortable being uncomfortable with themselves.
Coed locker rooms and third locker rooms are not realistic. Schools can't afford the latter, and nobody wants their little girl subjected to a mixed gender locker room.
There's so much ignorance there, I don't even know where to begin. Well, actually I do: Fuck the author and their tiresome, transphobic bullshit.
Given what Nova has had to go through as an ADULT transitioning, I have trouble imagining a guy who wasn't really transgendered subjecting himself to all that just to get into the girls' locker room.
Worth noting too is that it's highly unlikely a M-F trans person would WANT to shower with the rest of the girls, since that would involve putting her male junk on display. She'd probably go to whatever inconvenience was necessary to avoid that situation.
Gender Identity Disorder isn't generally diagnosed without meeting guidelines. Someone with GID has to identify with the disorder consistently for a minimum of two years, and they have to undergo psychological examination and counseling in the process, so it's not as simple as "Oh, I look like a guy but I'm a girl on the inside!" and *tada* instant access. It's something that comes about with much study and consideration, and is usually accompanied by pervasive and prominent mental and physical distress as the person in question tries to reconcile their physical gender with the gender by which their brain associates.
I agree that for existing facilities we need a policy, but moving forward any new facility or renovated one should move to co-ed. I'm sure everyone involved would prefer individual uni-sex showerstalls (where you can also change) to same gender group showers anyway. Once underwear is on grow the fuck up prudes. There is 3x more skin on daytime TV/at the beach. And if someone is uncomfortable with their body, they can always take more clothes into the stall with them. Again, more privacy than most gender segregated locker rooms afford.
Do you have a penis and/or testes? Then you should be using the men's locker room, your "feelings" about your gender notwithstanding. We're not going to have separate changing facilities to cater to every person who is in denial about their biology. It isn't going to hurt a person with male anatomy to dress with other males, nor a person with female anatomy to dress with other females. On the other hand, there will be lots of problems if those who are physically of one sex seek to dress with those of the other. Scream about "equality" all you want; I guarantee you that most females are not going to be comfortable sharing changing facilities with a biological male. And a biological female dressing amongst males? She'll be lucky if verbal abuse is all she receives. The "transgendered" need to realize that they are an extreme minority and, for reasons of social efficiency, are just going to have to adjust themselves.
I see that 1950s lunch counter owner is joining us again. Please, tell us more about how minorities should acquiesce to the whims of the majority for the sake of "social efficiency."
Oh, please. This is the opposite of that. Blacks wanted to have the same access as everyone else. Groups like the "transgendered" are seeking to have special accomodation. The "transgendered" can dress with people who are physically the same. It is no hardship for the poor little transgendered person to be in a room with people who have the same equipment.
I think transgenders should change/shower in locker rooms based on whatever their physical plumbing happens to be at that point in time. Practically speaking, no matter how girlie a transgender dude feels, he's still going to look down and see the fruit basket in his own briefs, so what's the big deal if he sees other fruit baskets around the locker room? And likewise for TG chicks...
Are we going to build them special facilities? Or are we going to make lots of people "uncomfortable" so a very few can be more "comfortable?" This is political correctness run completely amok. How does requiring them to use the facilities that correspond to their biological gender--you know, LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE DOES--keep them separate in any way?
Before I read the thread, two thoughts: 1. the standards say, IIRC, quite clearly "consistently presented" gender identity and it's also not a knee-jerk thing where you simply declare one day out of the blue. it would be for those students who'd dealt with a therapist and had a track record. No red-blooded male is going to go through such an elaborate deception for such a minor reward (or, likely, for ANY reward) 2. A certain proportion of females are resentful in sort of a knee-jerk fashion, but experience indicates that in general terms, a lot of females ARE accepting and supportive once they accept the legitimacy of your transition. Again, this is where a consistent track record is key. Most M2F trans teens find that their female peers tend to "adopt" them into the "girl club" quite easily. 3. In our culture, the SIGHT of an exposed penis, in and of itself, is not even a thing for the vast majority of teens. The potential that it might be used in a sexual context (or even brandished in a suggestive manner) - yes. but as I mentioned in the other thread, THAT sort of behavior would be more traumatizing to the transgirl than to the others. It's simply not a part of our makeup. Right the opposite in fact. 4. it shouldn't be that difficult in most cases to provide screens so that the exceptional student who has an issue with it can largely avoid seeing and being seen. It's been a long time since I've been in any locker room but I don't remember it as a place where people were notoriously flaunting their genitals.
I haven't made that recommendation. I do think we should consider separate facilities, though, which often aren't all that impractical. The main thing I'd like to accomplish, though, is getting away from the notion that we simply dismiss it because it's something you'd prefer not to acknowledge. There may be no practical solution to this question. That's fine, but let's be up front about that, and embrace the fact that there are some people who will suffer from the lack of a solution. Every time we say that a problem is insignificant, what we are really saying is that we don't care about the people who have that problem.
Bullshit. There's a perfectly identifiable biological mechanism for determining gender during pre-natal development, and just like any other mechanism it can on rare occasion go haywire. There is no such biological mechanism for alternating between mammal and reptile. There's no analogy at all. Reality? if you were really in touch with reality and not with your own opinion as determiner of all truth, you'd want to know that the reality is that science (you're big on science, right?)has determined a physiological basis for transsexualism. (NOT, by the way, all cases of "transgender" which is more a political term than a medical one) There's an easy answer to this rubric, which I don't think you will be able to answer beyond "just because" but on a work day i simply don't have time for the inevitable multi-page debate. Show some consideration? That's rich. "Please be miserable so that I don't have to be mildly inconvenienced, m'kaythnksbi!"
And for convenience sake, also wear a "please beat the shit out of me at your convenience" sign, too, eh?
