https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ctions-against-dutch-over-ministers-expulsion The Turkish prime minister has threatened the Netherlands with sanctions in retaliation for the expulsion of a government minister from the country as she tried to visit the consulate in Rotterdam. (...) The Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, said Kaya’s visit was “irresponsible” and she had defied requests from The Hague to stay away. “Since last week [foreign affairs] minister Bert Koenders and I have been constantly trying to de-escalate the situation,” he told WNL Op Zondag. “We need to talk about this.” On Sunday Rutte called the Turkish government’s stance bizarre and unacceptable and called for talks to resolve the impasse. He said Turkey had crossed a diplomatic line. “This has never happened before,” he said, “a country saying someone is not welcome and then them coming regardless.” (...) I guess we're going to have to get used to this Big Bad Dog barking all the time. What a numbskull.
So what's Erdo gonna do? Invade? They're campaigning all over Europe for a YES to give him autocratic powers on April 16th. And Turks who have lived in Europe for either 40+ years or who have been born here flock to those events like crazy. Personally I'd give them a choice. Here or there. Failed integration rears its ugly head. During the night of last year's attempted coup, thousands were mobilized during the night to protest on the streets. That's kind of dangerous. Shows how much power Turkey still has over people who live here. Nobody needs an uprising of millions.
No, but given the key geostrategic position of his country (Why does Turkish Airlines fly to more countries than any other airline in the entire world?) there are many ways in which a Turkish government can stomp on people's toes. Well, in Germany at least they were supposed to be "guest workers", i.e. they weren't supposed to integrate but rather to make up for all the males killed in the war, then go back. You mean personally (if you were queen) you'd expel any Turkish citizen who votes in a Turkish referendum? Hmm... Seems to me you might have a few unpleasantries in court. And any who have taken local nationality will thumb their noses at you but good. Also, how do you know they won't vote against Erdo? You're saying there might be a Turkish uprising in Western Europe? Whoa.
The mayor of Calgary, Alberta is Muslim. Calgary (of Stampede fame) in Alberta --- Canada's Texas. I mean, dig it!
1) The North Atlantic (long way from Turkey) Treaty is pretty vague. The only thing I could find is Art. 2 requiring members to "strengthen their free institutions". Try that ... And did Greece Under the Colonels get the boot? No. So, never happen. 2) Even if Turkey, and only Turkey, had clearly and gravely violated the Treaty, you don't think NATO would give up bases like İncirlik? Cuz I don't. 3) I'd also like to see Hungary kicked out on the same grounds as Turkey. Never happen. Of course, you can write to your congressandroid and suggest it LOL.
You'd think so, wouldn't you? He has said that there would be the most grave consequences. Not very grave -- the most grave. With any rational head of state, that has to mean a declaration of war. Which leaves him in the downright hilarious position of having to sell a strongly worded letter as 'the most grave consequence' his nation can accomplish.
I'm 99 percent sure that was a false flag coup. I said as much while it happened, now I'm sure. This was his Reichstagsbrand. Well played, Erdo. Well played. Just don't rely on Vladimir too much once Phase 2 begins (I'm betting on Turkey leaving NATO and cosying up to Russia).
Given how fast the AKP can mobilize thousands in Europe, even in the middle of the night it's not unthinkable. Everywhere while the coup was going on, yesterday in Rotterdam... Ankara snips a finger, they march. It's said 70 percent of the Turks here are Erdogan supporters. That's an awful lot of angry young men. Mind you: I don't have a problem with Turks. I only have a problem when after decades people still can't decide where they want to belong. When I'm, say, in the US for 40 years I wouldn't give a flying fuck about Austrian politics. This goes even more for the second and third generations who have been born here.
I also wondered at the time how the Turkish military, powerful as it is/(was at the time), could possibly fail. Perhaps Erdo had managed to infiltrate his own people into the highest military circles. Anyway, cui bono says Erdo was behind the whole thing. But -- speaking of a Reichtagsbrand -- cui bono also says the Busheviks were behind 911, though I seriously doubt that was the case. Maybe Erdo -- like Dubbya -- just seized the day. However, one must remember how profoundly split Turkish society is between the modernizers (Kemalist or not) and the conservative Erdoistas. He really does have a lot of genuine support. Anyway, the bugger is always ranting new threats. One thing he could do is expel the 3 million Syrian refugees in Turkey across the water into Greece. That would put the EU in a spot. I'm betting on him cosying up to Russia while not leaving NATO. The ability to threaten to leave gives him leverage. Once he leaves, he loses that leverage.
Where, in Austria? Who says this? How do they know? I'm not saying it isn't true. Though the split in Turkish society suggests to me that it will be the modernists who would wish to emigrate, not the people who support Erdogan. On the other hand, since the 50s it's been the poorest who emigrate, and they do come from the boonies, where Erdo has the most support. A lot of Kurds, though, too. I have to laugh, not because I doubt your word, but because it reminds me so much of "some of my best friend are black". Maybe @K. could tell us when Turkish "guest workers" in Germany first got easy access to German nationality. I'm not sure. Because it seems to me that this is a crucial factor. I've now been in Europe continually for going on 39 years. I still have an interest in Canadian politics. It's only natural. But I no longer have the right to vote, which is fair enough.
Der Spiegel's website is reporting that voices in the Bavarian wing of the ruling Christian Democrats have been calling on the government to withdraw its air-force units from Incirlik airbase. Not sure whether that would please or anger Erdo. Anyway, the German air force has responded that this ain't happenin'. Nevertheless, it shows how miserable relations have grown over the past year.
For once, I am actually with Seehofer and his right-wing loonies on this. Turkey has threatened to limit our access to our own troops twice now. If they don't act like allies, let's not have a base there.
I agree with you about Incirlik. And if German nationality has been readily available to longtime Turkish "guest workers" for less than two decades out of the six decades or so that they've been there, then I think that has a bearing on the answer to @Aurora 's question --- it's the Germans who took their time perceiving demographic reality. I'm not saying there isn't an integration problem, just that it takes two to tango. I wonder what the situation is in Austria.
This will surely help convince the European Parliament to reverse its suspension of Turkey's accession to the EU. Nothing but good things can come of this.
We have lots and lots of dual citizenships. Or in short, everybody is better at integration than Austria. Not by nature but by virtue of the far-right FPÖ. That party drives the endlessly ruling grand coalition before it so no effective measures can be taken. Every time someone tries, the loonies start screaming 'FOREIGNERS OUT!!!!' and win 5 percent in the polls.
Yes, "Foreigners Out!!!" is a vote magnet everywhere you go. Oh, except rich foreign tourists and banking clients. They can stay as long as they want.
Hungary has a right wing populist president but it is not a dictatorship. Truthfully, Poland had gone further down the authoritarian route so you are just being a partisan troll here. Turkey? Turkey is a true dictatorship now just like Russia.
Yea sounds like that, doesn't it But it's like I said. Welcome to Europe, this is how we live and you're cordially invited to do the same (with your own flavour). But after decades/your entire life here it's reasonable to actually arrive.
Yes. I wonder if the burka prohibition we got here a few months ago will concern all the millionaire Saudi women in Vienna's 1st district... guess they'll just flee into one of the luxury shops and hide behind a wall of gold or something.
Oh yeah? Care to explain what "party" I'm supporting? Orban in Hungary would probably win a free and fair election just as Erdogan in Turkey would. Orban has muzzled the free press and NGOs under the pretense of security. So has Erdogan. Erdogan has moved as zealously as any of his predecessors to deny the Armenian genocide. Orban has done likewise with the rather embarrassing question of Hungarian collaboration with the Nazis. Since last years coup attempt (or "coup attempt"), Erdogan has been moving faster than a wolverine on ball bearings to shut down all signs of a liberal society. Which makes him just like Orban and Putin. Yes, I probably should have mentioned Poland too. Kaczynski is also attacking, like Donald, the independent judiciary and an independent media. As for being electable, he was just freaking elected a year ago last September. So these guys are three peas in a pod. Add Putin and you've got four peas. All play to their constituents' basest instincts So Turkey is not (yet) a dictatorship, given that Erdo is very popular indeed -- once you get outside Istanbul and Ankara and into middle-class Anatolia (big place). He would certainly win a free and fair election. And so would Putin. As for me being a "partisan troll" ---- you, Dindins, are the board's chief expert in that realm. I bow to superior experience.
The irony is that the Dutch government in the past was the biggest proponent of Turkey being aloowed in the EU, now Erdogan is burning that bridge behind him with this kind of bullshit...
I think that Erdogan's crazy rants are pretty much the best thing that could happen in this already fucked up situation. If he weren't as mad, we might get used to the new status quo in our relations to Turkey. But Germany can't deal with a government that calls us Nazi, and I don't think the Netherlands will deal easily with these insults either.
Something similar may be hoped of Donald ---- he's such a jerky, ego-driven loon that he simply has to end up stepping on the wrong toes. Inshallah. Meanwhile the top story on Der Spiegel's foreign news site at the moment is a piece about how, yes, Erdo is burning his bridges with Europe, but scarcely has the Middle East to fall back on, since he's burned a lot of bridges there as well. As a firm Morsi supporter, he's at loggerheads with the government of Egypt, the Middle East's most populous country. Stirring the Sunni pot in Syria has put him in a tricky position there now that the wind has changed. (He's had a rapprochement of sorts with Putin, and they've promised to "cooperate" over Syria, but it's hard to see how this can last.) Plus he's probably bitten off more than he can chew against the Syrian Kurds. Meanwhile, apparently foreign investment in Turkey fell by 42% in 2016. Wow. So Erdo is turning to those Nice Guys in the Gulf states to fill the gap for him. If they step in, so much for Turkey's ambitions to be The Major Regional Power, since it will be dependent on their good graces. If they don't step in, Turkey's in big economic trouble. So watch this space, I guess.
