US backs coup in Venezuela

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46982692

Here we go again. Discuss.

On the one hand, Maduro's government doesn't have much in the way of legitimacy. This is not a good guy, nor is he a democratically elected leader like some of the people we helped oust in the '80s.

On the other hand, we really ought to have learned by now that messing in Latin American internal affairs doesn't do any good, and many of the things that are dodgy about Maduro's last re-election were also true of Putin's, but one gets the U.S. recognizing his opponent while the other gets Trump ignoring the advice of his own staff and calling him to grovel.

Trudeau sent the same message as Trump. And, btw, that's all that has happened so far: Words have been said by the leaders of other countries.

Shirley there's a difference in how we treat a Russian dictator and how we treat Venezuela's (soon-to-be-ex, probably) dictator?

1. Russia has nukes, thousands of them; Ven. has just feeble sponsorship from Russia or maybe China. [no risk of nuke war]
2. There's no southern counterpart to NATO pact defending against threat of nasty Venezuela's army invading Central America. [little need to consult allies about it]
3. Russia has not (yet?) bankrupted its oil-rich state, unlike Chavez/Maduro. So Russians are not flooding out of the country, eating their dogs, etc. [supporting overthrow of Maduro is humanitarian and helps our allies like Columbia dealing with millions of people migrating out of Ven.]
4. Russians like their dictator, they buy calendars featuring shirtless Putin wrestling bears or climbing mount Everest, and there is no legitimate (or even tenuous) basis to eliminate him. [the Ven's will love America (well, for about a month anyway), the Russians would hate us if we helped topple Putin] If Russian arm

And those are just the obvious ones, that don't require reflection on the topic or researching a bit.

Probably you forgot to remove your "Comrade Trump" eyeglasses through which you view world events?

Oh, plus it's a twofer (maybe even a three-fer); a slap at Venezuela's illegitimate boss is very much a slap at Putin too, perhaps with some sand in Xi's eyes as well.

You remind me of a young Donald trump.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/ven...ican-diplomats-72-hours-to-leave-country.html

Killary Clinton's at it again, this is going to be Benghazi 2.0. Release her emails!

Alas, poor Rick. Another paragon of socialist triumph has been revealed to be a pile of shit.

The US joins the rest of the hemisphere in recognizing the legal president of Venezuela, and Rick describes this as "backing a coup."

Well yeah, because nearly everyone (Canada, OAS, most of South America, and the US) recognizes that Maduro's "reelection" was rigged, and the head of the National Assembly is supposed to become acting President absent a legally elected President.

Welcome to the mindset of leftist Europeans. Welcome...

We have fucked over a lot of countries by backing coups and installing leaders favorable to our economic interests, so seeing us step up again to back an opposition leader in Venezuela sets my teeth on edge. At the same time, it's clear Maduro subverted the election process and is maintaining his power illegitimately. In other words, the will of the people is being ignored by Maduro. Right now, it's just words, but if Maduro manages to hold on, it will likely become more than words, and I just hope the people of Venezuela aren't crushed under the well-meaning boot heels of other nations, because this could go to shit very rapidly.

oh fucking great! If Venezuela becomes a worse nightmarish shit hole than it already is then yet ANOTHER caravan might be heading towards our border!
Jesus take a fucking number already, huh?

Hard to see how the situation could get much worse. Twenty years ago, Venezuela was the richest country on the continent. We gonna let those folks slide into further deprivation under a dictator because we're afraid to ruffle some feathers and crack some eggs?

Maybe we need to bring Mattis out of mothballs!

Do you think that I consider the Republican President to be legitimate?

you don't have to, but he's still your president until you catch the first thing smoking out of here!

I fully support your embrace of the Republican President.

Please don’t let my words in anyway cause you to not tie Trump and the Republican Party ever tighter and tighter together.

@Ancalagon Don't replace the devil with the beelzebub...

Do you think it really matters?

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-46982692



Democratic Socialism= Socialism= Communism = Mass Murdering Evil. 20 million dead in the 20th Century alone.

You're goddamn right we're not going to support that bullshit. Maduro, you're on notice, bitch. Just like Stalin, Breshnev, Castro, Guevarra, Chairman Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, and all the other mass-murdering fucking communists we've had to deal with in the name of Marxist 'socialism.' Get ready to meet your maker.

Trump is not going to do anything meaningful. If they were the first thing they would have done would have been to freeze Venezuela's assets in the US which it uses to clear all of its oil sales and second would be to embargo oil from Venezuela (the only thing of value they produce and even that has fallen by 50% in recent years due to corruption, mismanagement, and lack of investment). You will notice he has done neither.

A previous coup attempt, heavy economic sanctions and funding for the opposition don't count because...?

Did we fund Maduro's opponent? That's a legitimate question; I actually don't know.

If we did, I don't really have a moral problem with the idea of us helping somebody who's trying to oust a dictator. You might be able to convince me that it's a bad move for practical reasons, but not for ethical ones.

Questioning the legitimacy of your nations democratic election system?

No, none of those bodies claim that Maduro's re-election was rigged. They cite other irregularities that render it not "free and fair".

But of course, the US has no problem in propping up many, many other regimes who do rig elections (al-Sisi apparently won 97% in Egypt) or don't even bother to hold them at all (Saudi Arabia). The differential factor is not the democratic process, it is submission to US power interests. So this is exposed for what it is - naked imperialism.

The US has been financing the Venezuelan opposition for two decades. It's routine, there and elsewhere.

It throws the whole story about Russian interference in US elections into some perspective. There is a lot of hypocrisy going on.

Henry says "yes" but gives no explanation or support for his opinion, so the truth is probably "not really."

US spending is public information (outside of covert activity), and if US is supporting opposition in Venezuela it would be covert. Russia is Ven's sponsor state, and so Russia would probably have spread publicly any info that US is investing in opposition in Venezuela if detected by Russia.

Fortunately Wikileaks specialise in exposing covert operations of this nature.

Link on how USAID planned to spend $450,000 to "provide training to political parties on the design, planning, and execution of electoral campaigns" in Venezuela.

Link to a discussion between the US ambassador and a business magnate as to how to remove Chavez from power.

But some of it is in the open such as this, which earmarked $5 million to "support political competition-building efforts", as Orwellian a phrase as I've heard yet.

None of which is to say that things have not become very fucked up in Venezuela. But it is up to the people of Venezuela to choose their way forward. It is not the business of the United States.

^Thank you.

Looks like pre Obama stuff though. And certainly pre-Guaidó, who is the "opposition" in question in this discussion.

In general terms, I don't dispute that US meddles throughout South and Central America to the extent our administrations believe it is in our best interests. Imo, taking the long view, often the US approach is short sighted.

The army backed Maduro - for the moment anyway. And whoever pays the army is the person in control for so long as they keep paying the army. With an oil industry spitting only around 1/3 of the oil income than a decade or two ago, it might become challenging for Maduro to keep up his protection payments.