US-Russia Missile Talks Come To Naught

Discussion in 'The Red Room' started by phantomofthenet, Oct 12, 2007.

  1. Dan Leach

    Dan Leach Climbing Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    32,366
    Location:
    Lancaster UK
    Ratings:
    +10,668
    It is possible to get it to work, thats not the reason you should stop now.
    The reasons you should stop now are
    A: the only effect of building this is an arms race where govts develop missiles than cant be shot down with missile shields, then missile shields get updated, then missiles get updated, ad infinitum...
    B: it will cost a stupid amount of money and will never be used.
    C: the shield will break anti-ballistic missile treaties that have been in place for years(the 1972 Anti-Ballistic Missile treaty), causing everyone else who has signed up to break them as well
    D: Its only a load of bullshit political posturing anyway
    E: all it is is a way to waste tens or hundreds of billions on a rather crappy way to do some some chest beating
  2. JUSTLEE

    JUSTLEE The Ancient Starfighter

    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2007
    Messages:
    6,659
    Ratings:
    +988
    I wish somebody would develop that nanotech that would attack and destroy all nuclear weapons in the world.
  3. marathon

    marathon Calm Down, Europe...

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    28,685
    Location:
    Midamerica
    Ratings:
    +3,593
    But then someone else would just develop a nanotech that destroys all of something else in the world, and so on, and so on :soma:
  4. BearTM

    BearTM Bustin' a move! Deceased Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    27,833
    Ratings:
    +5,276
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Dan Leach

    Dan Leach Climbing Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    32,366
    Location:
    Lancaster UK
    Ratings:
    +10,668
    Was the missile that was intercepted fitted with even the most simple counter measures?
    The problem with a missile shield is its fooled exceptionally easily
  6. Chris

    Chris Cosmic Horror

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Messages:
    28,946
    Ratings:
    +4,331
    1. You're an idiot. ABMs against modern ICBMs with multiple, manuverable warheads are completely ineffective. Russia is crying over nothing and you, knowing nothing, took them at face value.

    2. That's the whole point! It's too expensive to field against the Russians full scale, and I'd hope to God it was never used.

    3. The United States already removed itself from the treaty, and there was only one other signatory: Russia.

    4. So are the Olympics, does it matter?

    5. I've already demonstrated that they can be used properly against the right foe (Korea, Iran, Syria), therefore it's not "crappy" and if you don't think any of those nations are a threat, then I won't have to remove you from this discussion: you'll have done it yourself.
  7. Order2Chaos

    Order2Chaos Ultimate... Immortal Administrator

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2004
    Messages:
    25,223
    Location:
    here there be dragons
    Ratings:
    +21,472
    Fuck 'em. All of 'em. If Europe wants missile defense, let them build it.
  8. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,945
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,567
    It does kind of matter when you're spending such enormous sums of money, yes.
  9. marathon

    marathon Calm Down, Europe...

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    28,685
    Location:
    Midamerica
    Ratings:
    +3,593
    An argument against socialism from a surprising source :soma:
  10. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,945
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,567
    :dayton:
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. evenflow

    evenflow Lofty Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    25,051
    Location:
    Where the skies are not cloudy all day
    Ratings:
    +20,614
  12. BearTM

    BearTM Bustin' a move! Deceased Member

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    Messages:
    27,833
    Ratings:
    +5,276
    And the market report for today puts the exchange rate at 1 pile of fresh dog shit to 35.8K henryhills.
    • Agree Agree x 3
  13. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    27,076
    Location:
    Bottom of the bearstack, top of the world
    Ratings:
    +49,042
    Bad example, since that system's effectiveness was somewhat... overstated... at the time:

    Success rate is also lower if you score a hit but fail to kill the warhead or force it off-target to an unimportant location. The success rate was 30% higher for Patriot batteries stationed in Saudi Arabia than in Israel, because Scuds were forced off-course into the desert whilst off-course Scuds targeting Israel were largely forced down into populated areas.

    And, of course, Patriot points out the difficulties in engaging incoming missiles all too tragically:

    Regardless, the question is should NOT be "is this possible?" but "is this worth the time and effort, as well as pissing off other nations, considering that the most likely delivery of a nuclear weapon by a rogue state would NOT involve an ICBM or short-range sub-launched missile?".
  14. Dan Leach

    Dan Leach Climbing Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    32,366
    Location:
    Lancaster UK
    Ratings:
    +10,668
    And scuds are big, fat and slow...
  15. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    51,920
    Location:
    Norphlet, Arkansas
    Ratings:
    +5,412
    General Daniel O. Graham
    General Abramson
    Dr. Robert Jastrow

    To name just three.
  16. Dayton Kitchens

    Dayton Kitchens Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2004
    Messages:
    51,920
    Location:
    Norphlet, Arkansas
    Ratings:
    +5,412
    Counter measures, even simple ones aboard ICBMs take up space and weight that either reduce the range of missiles or the payload (nuclear warheads).

    So just by forcing a nation to add counter measures, you reduce their nuclear threat.
  17. Chris

    Chris Cosmic Horror

    Joined:
    Mar 23, 2004
    Messages:
    28,946
    Ratings:
    +4,331
    Are you honestly telling me that you can put a price on the head of human beings?
  18. matthunter

    matthunter Ice Bear

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2004
    Messages:
    27,076
    Location:
    Bottom of the bearstack, top of the world
    Ratings:
    +49,042
    You haven't yet shown that this is the only strategy to defend those people, let alone whether it's the most cost-effective.
  19. K.

    K. Sober

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    27,299
    Ratings:
    +31,289
    Right now, no-one has managed to show that it is a strategy to defend those people.
  20. marathon

    marathon Calm Down, Europe...

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    28,685
    Location:
    Midamerica
    Ratings:
    +3,593
    Show who?

    Do you make sure everyone in town likes the make and model you've chosen before you buy a car? Or is it nobody's business but yours?


    What is the sentiment of the Polish and Czech public on this matter?
  21. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,945
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,567
    No, I'm saying that since I think that there are better ways to spend the money to help human beings, it does matter if it's wasted on this.
  22. marathon

    marathon Calm Down, Europe...

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    28,685
    Location:
    Midamerica
    Ratings:
    +3,593
    Are you a resident of the Czech Republic or Poland?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  23. K.

    K. Sober

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    27,299
    Ratings:
    +31,289
    Anyone. At all.

    If I spend their money to buy a car that is so unsafe it is likely to kill many of them, it is certainly their business.
  24. K.

    K. Sober

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    27,299
    Ratings:
    +31,289
    Are you?
  25. marathon

    marathon Calm Down, Europe...

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2004
    Messages:
    28,685
    Location:
    Midamerica
    Ratings:
    +3,593
    Have you read my opinion on the matter? I've stated it twice now ;)
  26. RickDeckard

    RickDeckard Socialist

    Joined:
    May 28, 2004
    Messages:
    37,945
    Location:
    Ireland
    Ratings:
    +32,567
    I don't need to be to have or express an opinion on matters concerning them.