Voyager should have been the best Trek series EVAR.

Calm down. I'm not saying the Voyager we got should top any "best of" list.

What I'm saying is, if you look at the basic recipe without the bias of knowing how the premise was executed, Voyager should have been fucking EPIC.
Setting aside for a moment that the "lost in space" setting has been done many times before, and BSG is supposedly in part a glimpse of what V'ger would've been with Ron Moore in charge, just look at what you've got.

A smaller ship, a scientist captain, stranded beyond the limits of their propulsion tech to deliver them back before most of them are old and decrepit. Half the crew dead, supplemented by a number of non-Starfleed crew who's capture was the original mission. Everything around them, everything between them and home either completely alien, or an enemy so overwhelming that the entire force of Starfleet is barely able to resist. No friendly repair and resupply without the risk of initiating contact. Nothing but grim determination and their own inventive resourcefulness to fend off the demoralizing effects of attrition and isolation. Every decision a chance to doom them all, and almost every encounter a new one for Starfleet as a whole. A journey of exploration by necessity. This kind of shit is what Star Trek is all about. Shoulda been nothing but consequence, without a single reset button in sight.

I was thinking about this when I watched "Threshold" ( )on my DVR box last night. Thinking about how it should have been. That warp 10 research shouldn't have been a pet hobby for a few scientists and engineers. Janeway, callous and salvation-obsessed war horse that she should have become, should have been standing over all of them, cracking the whip for this sort of shit. Should've been soliciting wild ideas from the entire crew and pursuing the ones with promise.

Maybe instead of returning and transforming into a catfishsalamander ( ) , Paris doesn't fucking come back at all. Leave his fate unresolved for a few episodes. Find some shuttle debris a few months later or something. Have them continually risking their asses on untried propulsion technology and facing lasting consequences for it.

For that matter, we should've seen a lot more screen time devoted to adapting all of their systems to their new mission of survival. Construction of a large industrial replicator in the cargo bay for making the spare parts they'd normally just collect at a starbase, supplemented with acquired alien tech along the way. Visible adaptations. That ship, like it's crew, should've been barely recognizeable by the time it made it back home. A monument to consequence and sacrifice, redeemed by the acheivements of the survivors along the way.

Yes it should. But then, 'canon' would never allow for a Trek show to be executed like BSG. Which is why I welcome a reboot - just remember how stupid the original BSG was. Maybe it can get a little more edgy and ballsy.

I've heard this proposition put forth before but I don't buy it.

I think making the overriding thing for the ship and crew to be "getting home" with the unspoken assumption that they would get home hurt the series severely.

I think the only thing that could've helped Voyager would be if the captain and crew after a half a season or so basically said (whether it was true or not)

"the hell with going home. We're the baddest, toughest ship in the whole quadrant!! This is our turf now".

That's the fuckin American disease, and I see it enough in daily life, thanks.

I don't see that as incompatible with the journey home. I think it would be a necessity of it. That ship should've ended up an over-built conglomerate of improvisations aimed at exceeding the design's intended capabilities in every area: replication, defense, propulsion, navigation, all of it.

They should've gotten tired of getting their asses kicked all over the place halfway through the first season. Maybe holed up in an abandoned shipyard for a couple months' worth of refits and crew retraining.

And you're right. Maybe they don't get home. Or maybe the grand homecoming is one of bitter sadness, similar to Timeless but without the reset.

And Cass, the great thing about being stranded in the Delta quadrant is that there's very little canon to stand in your way. All we really knew is that the Borg were out there somewhere. They weren't constrained by AQ politics and history at all. No worries about upsetting the balance of power or displaying hostility by making V'ger into an overt warship/hot rod.

Hell, what if only a few, or even none of the Starfleet crew survived? Suppose it were only the Maquis using that ship to get back? Assuming they've still got Torres, the sky is pretty much the limit at that point. They'd be free to ignore Federation treaties regarding technology, unburdened by concerns over the fucking Prime directive. Just think of it. A Maquis pirate ship with a cloaking device, trading with all manner of criminals to get what they need, forming alliances, influencing local politics, total mercenaries in their goal of making it back to familiar territory.

Or maybe they marooned the SF crew somewhere, and they show up later that season to reclaim their ship. Now they've got a big piece of equipment that's been heavily modified by people with no regard for regulations and no idea how to operate the new systems. There's your tense integration.

Whats wrong with that.

American show. Largely American audience.

It's assholism.
It fuckin sucks.
It's everything that's wrong with our society.
And it's what Trek isn't about.

You want a crew of bullying dick wavers, set it in some other universe.

Yeah, but then I'd have no one to root for on that show, which is my problem with BSG now.

Unless they had a human version of an emotions-released-post-Suder-Mindmeld-Tuvok who wanted to put those Maquis cocksuckers in their graves.

How do you figure that?

Kirk gets this false reputation as a pistol waving cowboy, but I can't remember one episode or incidence where he was fighting for Starfleet hegemony of the galaxy.


Quite the opposite, he was always anti-tyranny, pro-peace.

The only really dirty political decision I remember him having to make was in "a private little war", and even that was to restore balance.

A Few Months Later

Kazon First Officer: Are you seriously considering making a suicide run against that "Federation" ship?
Kazon Captain: Yes.
Kazon First Officer: Their sensors are extremely advanced. They'll see us coming.
Kazon Captain: They won't see this coming.

The Next Day

Paris: Captain, I'm detecting a Kazon ship coming out of the nebula.
Evil Imperialist Janeway: The bastards aren't even trying to evade. Red Alert, lock quantum torpedoes on target.

(On the viewscreen, a couple of Borg cubes come out of the nebula)

Janeway: Target the Borg! Target everyone! Somebody FIRE!

The Tuvok character should've stolen that show. Several times the experience of any other officer on the ship. Maybe his extensive combat-specific skills & survival training combine to result in him being the only command-level officer to survive a significant portion of the journey. Maybe he leads the surviving remains of the SF crew to reclaim the ship. How did they catch up? Maybe the maquis stole Voyager from the abandoned ship yard during the refit, and the refugee SF crew was left there to slowly die off while they adapt some shuttles & spare parts into a life boat that held together long enough to get them near V'ger.

Dammit, that settles it. Just reboot Voyager.

How about this.

Tuvok observes the crew throughout "Caretaker' and the first one hour episode.

At the beginning of the second episode, Tuvok has coldly and dispassionately decided that the entire command crew, including Janeway and her new Maquis friends are utter incompents.

So he whips out his phaser and guns them all down. Then proceeds to promote some competent crewman to serve under him.

Well, the original Star Trek was "let's go out and explore things".

Deep Space Nine was "ok, I'm tired of doing anything, let's just sit here and play with our privates until something comes along".

Voyager was "moooommmmy, I wanna go home".

a.

The Maquis crew integrated a little too well with the Starfleet crew after about the time B'Lanna became the chief engineer, that was like episode 4 or 5. But I liked how they addressed some of them not integrating as well in the season 1 finale. Suder should have stayed around. He was a great foil for Tuvok: an illogical, emotional killing machine. Also, the crew should have actually mutinied against the Captain and make it last for a season. In the series finale, I would have also liked to see the ship struggling across the finish line with only 70-something crewmembers left and parts of the ship completely blown off.

Actually, I think there's probably enough decent episodes to slap together the dream Voyager in a "fan collective", length set.

Hey, there's a fun idea!

Okay, folks, 4 episodes a disk, 4 disks a set.

12 episodes to show a newb Voyager didn't totally suck.

Aaand GO!

Works for me.

All the VOY episodes I have recorded that I like could fit on one DVD recording disc.

I liked LEarning Curve as well (Watched it last night for the first time in a few years.). But I like most Tuvok-centric episodes, if for no other reason than Tim Russ's acting abilities.

All right, how's this?

1.Caretaker.
2.The phage
3.learning curve
4.non sequiter
5.meld
6.basics 1
7.basics 2
8.year of hell 1
9.year of hell 2
10.course: oblivion
11.workforce 1
12.workfroce 2

I think ya gotta include every episode where they make a big leap in distance.

And I hate to say it, but encountering the Borg was inevitable. It would be a big, glaring question mark to ignore them.

Yeah, but "fan collective: Borg", covers them.

Hmm, huge distance leaps...how about replace "Non Sequiter", with "the gift"?

What other ones?

Fuck. I doubt I remember them all. Ain't like I was paying full and undivided attention that entire 7 years.

The Gift is the one with the Kes boost, right? OK, there's also the one with that alien's slingshot thingy. And the wormhole in Night. And Timeless. Did they gain any distance in the episode with the Dauntless where they learned about slipstream? Any significant leaps using those conduits in Dragon's Teeth? Transwarp coil in Dark Frontier. Transwarp conduit in Endgame. Should also include the Q episode where he gives them star charts that shave some distance off of their trip. I'm sure I'm missing a shitload.

Ugh, but then one might as well collect all the seasons.

The point of chopping it down is to use the iron fist.

Piller remaked that he hoped for a lot more for Voyager, given its excellent premise. TPTB (the suits above that we don't have a face and a name to put to) wanted something far, far different. Ron Moore illuminated Voyager's problems, but he was far from the only person thinking the same (or close to the same) thing.

I never followed Voyager that closely, but when I recently watched the much vaunted "Year of Hell", (for the first time) I realized that Voyager's problems went way beyond the abandonment of the premise. There's just something so fundementally wrong with the show in the general.

What?
Ohh....

Yeah, but look how long it took someone to notice.

I'm not losing DS9 because of Voyager, so you can just forget that right there.

AQ standards=studio standards...IMHO DS9 only got away with its very mild edgyness because nobody cared what they did. Everybody looked at VOY.

One of the Voyager writers told me and a group of Trek fans at a convention the following things:

1) The Voyager team had no intention or wish to keep the Maquis/Starfleet conflict going after the premier.

2) No one on Voyager wanted to feature the Borg at all.

She went on to say.

3) Brannon Braga flat out vetoed having the ship damaged or altered any as the series progressed because he thought it would be too depressing.

4) Many on the writing staff wanted to say "the hell with the Delta Quadrant" after the third season, bring the ship back home and simply take up where ST:TNG had left off but that Berman vetoed that idea since it would have been admitting that stranding the ship in the Delta Quadrant was a mistake in the first place.

She also said something unusually revealing.

MOST of the Voyager writers, producers, and staff actually HATED the show after the second season

Well, Robert Beltran leaked that last one often enough.

I was surprised that Berman hated his own show.