Why Does Modern Trek Make Earth Out To Be A "Paradise"?

A "lack of money" (I'd prefer "an absence of money," but let's not quibble) implies that all of these things come about by magic. Maybe you need a more accurate word for "money."

There is no "lack of money." People no longer carry wadded up bills and loose change in the pockets. They don't stand on line at the bank to cash their paychecks. That doesn't mean there isn't an exchange of revenue for work.

That aside, where did you imagine the "stuff" comes from? Who builds the replicators? Who builds the starships? What do they build them with, and who makes the machines that build those? Who provides the raw materials for the entire process?

I'll give you a hint: It's not magic.

Just because they're not discussed onscreen doesn't mean they're not there, if you stop and think about them.

They're a step in the process. And they're only one aspect of the progress being made almost daily, much of it mirroring what was only suggested with Styrofoam props and lighting effects in 1966.

Because in the future, they are not constrained by money or logistics. They can, at a moment's notice, eat literally anywhere on earth that has a free table and accepts walk-in customers.

I'm sure there's an economy, but minus a means of exchange what you're left with is central planning and someone else deciding how much replicator energy you get, or who gets first dibs on those products that cannot be replicated.

People who like building things, in the private sector. The enlisted folks explain themselves. No need to dig into why they do their jobs.

What couldn't be replicated?

I know the Trek writers put a cap on it for dramatic purposes, but in practical terms, there's nothing special about any human scale object regularly prized by humans that makes it impossible to reproduce.

Unless it's an ice cube made out of billion year old water, or some horseshit like that.

But...come on.

Sorry, but simply repeating this doesn't make it so.

It doesn't, what it highlights is that people can be pretty much motivated to do anything and simply because you cannot comprehend the why doesn't mean someone else cannot.

I've done menial work, and find it very therapeutic at times. If it paid as well as programming, I'd go back to doing something less mentally taxing so I could enjoy more intellectual hobbies again.

So I can see exactly why people would do it in a post-economic society.

What motivates people to do anything? They get something out of it.

I don't know, but simply because I don't doesn't mean someone else won't. You're desperately grasping for rationale in an arena of human nature that has very little beyond the right buttons getting pressed in someone's psyche.

Because they wanted to. My entire post was pretty much an explanation that whatever pushes your buttons needn't push mine, and vice versa.

Right. Because 'infinite run' games aren't menial. Ever played Minecraft? That gets damned burdensome and menial. Still manages to entertain though.

People can enjoy menial tasks, that's the bit you seem to have trouble comprehending on the basis you do not. My own step-father stepped down from a managerial role to lump things around in a warehouse for less money because he enjoyed it more.

Satisfaction comes in many, many forms.

Way to miss the point...

Have we had many episodes where they got to discuss their hopes and fears prior to meeting their untimely end?

Stop thinking so one dimensionally, do people join the military for single reasons? Or are there those who want to serve their country? And those who want college funding? Or those who want a way out of their current life?

There are plenty of reasons, and Ensign Bob may just have wanted to go see the galaxy.

They wouldn't, but if you live on Bajor it's probably a bit closer to home than Risa.

Must be like moderating a board. Tell, you get a kick out of Help Desk threads saying you've lost it? I know I wouldn't, so obviously no one else would ever want to moderate this board...

The universe, nor human nature, is bound by your own limited imagination.

His argument rides on the assumption that work structure and power relationships 300 years from now would match our current arrangements. It's easy enough to consider a restaurant in which all share in busing duties, for example, along with the apprentice/master concept, along with quite a few other possibilities.

Seems like they have problems with antimatter and dilithium crystals. I would also include anything that cannot come through the transporter. And then there's the things that are physically too large to replicate in one piece, so you'd replicate your giant-sized model kit and do the assembly yourself.

There probably would be something unless they've got an infinite energy source - finite resources need some form of rationing.

The monetary system would be gone, but some form of base energy credits to everyone with them being boosted for doing tasks would make sense.

Latinum on the frontier doesn't count.

What means of exchange did Picard use?

The closest thing we saw to a dedicated Federation facility having a means of exchange was the replicator rations on Voyager, which was due to them having to contend with scarcity where they never would have back on earth.

That's plot stuff, not reality.

I tear a lot of that down here.

http://dickynoo.blogspot.com/2010/02/star-trek-tech-quantum-resolution-is.html

I repeat what's in that blog post, and add on that you could replicate replicator enhancers, and enhance-replicate ehanced-replicator-enhancers, and so on, and so on, until you get the pattern resolution you need.

Ditto size.
Replicate emitter boosters, to make bigger emitters, to make bigger emitters, until the big object can come through.

Put me into the Trekverse, and I could hack around every single Okuda roadblock he threw up within minutes.

Also in the TrekVerse, assuming the replicators aren't perfect generators of energy-to-matter, they're going to dump excess heat into the atmosphere.

One replication isn't going to do much, billions per day though... That much excess energy getting dumped into the atmosphere annually would knock our CO2 emissions into a cocked hat.

If you're writing your own fiction to fill in the blanks, just give everyone the power of Q. I was trying to limit myself to what I'd actually seen on screen. They don't replicate whole ships. They assemble them at shipyards, and presumably not every piece is replicated.

(A) See ecky's post #70

and

(B) Starfleet =/= Earth

I can puzzle-piece it with stuff onscreen.
Read the blog post.

I agree the 24th century doesn't seem to have any meaningful form of scarcity in the Starfleet realm, and therefore, the concept of currency pretty much goes out the window. But in the 23rd century, there are several mentions of the concept of economic value. Can't recall the episode, but there is at least one discussion between Kirk and Spock about the cost to Starfleet for Spock's education and training. The clear implication is that Spock is of greater economic value than Ensign Red Shirt.

Abstract "credits" that we've never seen or heard anything about is just a rephrasing of what I said: some central authority decides how much of what goes to whom.

What specific example have you got?

Oh, and also...

I dunno, those honeycombs on sticks in TMP look like big transporters to me.

I hold to the theory that the 1701-refit is still the same ship, because they recycled the atoms.

One Little Ship showed that they've got the capacity to shrink things near a singularity.

Romulan ships use a quantum singularity, so there's your shrink ray prior to transportation...

Trek has opened so many doors with the tech, they keep having to find a reason to either slam them shut or hope nobody notices as they saunter away whistling.

Then why do they have boneyards full of old starships?

Another nonsensical bit on Trek - didn't we see people working on the exteriors in TMP? Scaling replicators up makes a lot of sense, again with their tech just make the shell a Bose-Einstein condensate and you don't need any structural integrity field as you're then effectively flying a starship-shaped and sized atom...

Pick one...

A. Character nostalgia.
B. Bad writing.
C. Both.

Just like it is now. The "central authority" is called "your employer."

There's a much larger civilian population? Or did you think infants were hatched in little redshirt nurseries? That would be Brave New World.

Nurseries?
Puh-leeeze, they could replicate instant people if they wanted.

All in the blog post.

I comprehend the reasons for doing those others things just fine. But you seem to miss my point (or maybe I'm not making it well).

People GET SOMETHING out of what they choose to do. It may be money, it may be satisfaction, it may be admiration, or it may be many other things.

But who (and I'm NOT talking exceptions, I mean who in general) would CHOOSE to do menial work if they didn't have to?

Most people doing menial work aren't doing it for therapy most of the time.

And if you could enjoy those intellectual hobbies without doing EITHER?

Note what you said: you'd prefer to do something less taxing so you could enjoy your intellectual hobbies. Why wouldn't you spend ALL of your time on your hobbies if you didn't have to work? Are you REALLY telling me you'd go work a menial job EVEN IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO?

YES! Now explain to me what MOST people would get out of doing a menial JOB that they don't have to do.

You're having a hard time coming up with a reason because there ISN'T a reason. NO ONE--well, hardly anyone--seeks out menial labor to do. Apart from necessity--you need to do it to put food on the table--there's no reason to do it.

How many people do you know who want to spend their free time mowing lawns, mopping floors, washing dishes?

You're wrong, actually. Both of our buttons are pushed when there is some appeal to our self-interest, however we define that.

You WON'T go shovel shit, mop floors, or trim hedges UNLESS YOU GET SOMETHING OUT OF IT. Not necessarily money, but SOMETHING.

The future presented in Star Trek shows menial jobs, but there is no plausible explanation for why people would do those jobs IF THEY DON'T NEED TO. And, apparently, they don't.

Unless the Federation is one massive welfare state and makes people go to work in order to receive replicator credits...

It's fun, it isn't work. You enjoy the stimulation playing the game provides. I doubt you'd find similar stimulation in pouring concrete or painting fences.

I get it that sometime people enjoy doing bits of labor. But spending years of your life IF YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO? No. I sincerely doubt it.

But would he have stayed at the warehouse job AT ALL if he didn't have to?

Understood.

Have we ever seen a crewman say "Fuck this shit! I quit!" either?

There are no busboys.
They're holograms.

That was easy.
Next.

I actually find that to be a more plausible answer.

I choose that one, and further submit that this same human sentimentality would result in a lot of hand-crafting rather than replication and robot assembly, even at Starfleet shipyards.

Plus, even if you assemble everything whole at the atomic level, there is still the finesse of fine-tuning a machine, and then contending with the unique personality it develops as you pile on the [-]mileage[/-] light years.

Or they're actors performing a role. In a world of replicators and what not, the service function is an act.