Mrs. Obama: FINALLY Proud of Her Country?

It's tribal. They need to *belong*

I agree with that. But the difference between a basic understanding and a deep understanding is a profound one.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Just like everyone is entitled to weigh that opinion within the realm of that person's knowledge and experience.

From your later example - George Washington Carver 'suffered' from racism. He attempted to enroll at a college, was accepted, but when he arrived and they learned he was black they denied him entrance. He later overcame this, but certainly it affected him, his perceptions, and his expectations. Fortunately for all of us other colleges weren't so blind to the man's talents and abilities.

A coworker of mine 'felt' racism. She was a poor employee, slept on the job, always did the absolute minimum, and spent half her time on her cell phone. She was passed over for promotion several times.

She accused the company of racism, threatened to get a lawyer, and was transferred to another manager who would be more receptive to her unique contributions as a minority. Needless to say, she was later promoted.

The difference between experiencing racism and 'feeling' it are again profound.

The difference is I assume that there's no racism because there's no recorded incident of it. If she ever experienced it, she didn't make it public.

You are saying just because she never said it, we can't assume it didn't happen.

What is that old gem about disproving a negative?

Though it's possible we are taking the term 'racism' within different contexts. Meeting someone of no particular importance to her that didn't like her because she was black of course is experiencing racism. But its not something that would necessarily hurt her career.

I think almost everyone has experienced that kind of discrimination at some point or the other, whether it be race, gender, age, class or something else.

I'm pretty sure the black kids that threw rocks at my car because I took a wrong turn and ended up on the wrong street in DC were racist. Or the gangbanger who spray painted 'Honkey, your ass is mine after dark' in a place where my car broke down.

Racism is ubiquitous. Institutionalized racism is not.

Read again. I explicitly stated that anyone who could point out real cases of racism wasn't in that group. Certainly Carver of all people would qualify - he was born a slave, was stolen by raiders from his owner, and had his family wiped out by the raiders.

The difference is I don't assume that every successful black person faced institutionalized racism. In our modern culture, I would find that to be the exception rather than the rule.

Going back to the point, if Michelle Obama 'really' experienced pride in her country for the first time recently, I have to wonder how she would explain that to Coretta Scott King.

But then, I think she simply misspoke.

But if it turns out that was explicitly what she meant, yes, I'd have a problem with it. The United States is a flawed institution because it's run by people. But it has achieved some magnificent things, flawed as it might be.

If you want to see some flaws, watch the next 4 years.

Within the context of her offended sensibilities in the work place, certainly.

Within the context of whether voters should vote for her husband? I'd call that apples and hunks of bloody, raw meat.

I'll remember that the next time I'm voting, contributing to the process that created those things other people but not me should feel proud of.

The European and American concepts of nationality are vastly different. We aren't in the process of deconstructing the national identity here because it's already pretty broad. Despite our pecadillos, most Americans self identify as just that, Americans. We aren't Virginians first and then Americans.

Europe is in the process of deconstructing those concept of national identity in order to subordinate it to the new European identity.

Which of course is considerably more artificial then say the Italian or French identities, but more politically palatable because by doing so they increase the chances of Europe being once again a superpower.

Well, that was 10 times more personal and venom dipped than it needed to be.
Guess I wounded some deeply cherished belief or something.
How white victimhood could be cherished is quite a disturbing matter, but okay, you hug onto that...

So in other words, your feelings are relevant, bu her aren't.

No you won't.

People's feelings in the workplace should be subordinate to the work. Too often that isn't the case, but that's one of the reason I'm a Republican. They tend to try to ignore the touch feely stuff, and get on with the show.

My feelings about Michelle Obama are irrelevant. No way, shape or form is her husband getting my vote.

But she certainly should be aware that there are other folks who are undecided, and their feelings will matter when she is courting their vote.

Sure I will. As I chuckle gleefully at all the fools who harp on jingoism and the evils of nationalism while they subordinate their ethnic heritage to attempt to create a European superstate, to rival the current American and the rising Chinese superstates.

Because being Dutch doesn't matter, as long as you are European. LOL.

I take pride in my country because I'm a vital part of it, as a voter, and in the work I do.

If you chose not to about your nation, that's your own perogative.

But I won't think any less of mine because of it.

^Tribal. And ANGRY. Bloody chunks of meat - grrrr!

Cuz you're an asshole!! You're an asshole!!
Fo-de-oh! Doh-de-oh!!
You're an asshole!! You're an asshole!!
A real fuck-ing asshole!!

What, you couldn't even find the Youtube version? With all that spare time, you'd think you'd make more of it.

Here's one for you Dicky, straight from the heart.

[YT="The basement dweller's anthem"]s8zn63ADiIE[/YT]

...is what you said, and then you immediately did forget, reverting to question about the worth of nations, which has NOTHING to do with what I said.

Wallets are inevitably filled.
Assholism is forever.

You do realize that eventually your parents will no longer be there to support you. Who is going to fill that wallet then?

Equally incorrect. Assholes turn to Angels (and vice versa) everyday.

LOL. No, I got what you said, Packard. I shouldn't have any sense of pride in the nation because I didn't accomplish anything that it did.

Which, of course, is wrong. The greatest advantage of democracy isn't the inherent wisdom of the common man, but their investment in the political process itself.

Every time I vote, my own intrinsic value is added to the nation's own. Even if I don't vote for the winner, the fact that the government has legitimacy is part of that.

Of the people, by the people, for the people.

We've analyzed it to death, tried to rip it to pieces, scorned it and castigated those who believe in it, but it's still true. Arguably more now than it was 200 years ago.

So yes, I take pride in America, because I'm part of it, I give it my sanction, and it does alright by me. Just like I take pride in the accomplishments of my son, and the accomplishments of my family down through the years.

Your concern is heartwarming.
You needn't worry.

Tribalism.

Okay, so you are immensely proud of the US of A because they are so lucky as to have Demiurge as a voting citizen. Out of everything you've said, that's the one bit that's your accomplishment: You could choose not to vote, but you do. The rest is hollow posturing as far as pride is concerned.

Trust me, Dicky, no one worries about the inevitable. It's pointless.

For what it's worth, Michelle Obama has explained her remarks further.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/02/20/more-from-michelle-obama-on-pride/

And here's a conservative pundit weighing in:

So pointless, you had to flex your typing digits one more time.

Call me a bleeding heart liberal, but I believe in having a social safety net. I believe in the concept of welfare (although I'd prefer it modified to workfare). But Dicky, is basically a right wing straw man made flesh. Smart, no physical disabilities, but too lazy to get off his ass and pay his own way. You just know that if his parents weren't there he'd be leeching off the state. And that once they are out of the picture one way or the other, that's where he'll end up.

And that pisses me off.

Packard agrees: Or in short, the best remaining choice for President.

When you think about it though, isn't Michelle's statement sort of the heart of today's Democratic Party? It is a party that is ashamed of success and accomplishment because in order to get there someone else had to be put down.

So maybe it is sort of that Democratic sense of guilt.

If she's said the same exact thing before then yes, an intelligent person can really assume that she meant exactly what she said:

[yt="Fool me once..."]7WNGjawtP48[/yt]

OK, so how do you know that Michelle Obama hasn't "suffered" racism? Because from whatever article(s) about her you may have read, she didn't explicitly talk about it? Some people just don't like to talk about their negative experiences, and certainly not for public consumption.

Indeed, I would go so far as to say that many of those who "suffer" racism do so silently, as opposed to many of those who "feel" racism, who are vocal about it.

There's a better one about what happens when you assume.

And that's where we differ. I don't assume that Michelle Obama has been the victim of racism, and I don't assume she hasn't. I simply don't know.

You, by contrast, started by presuming she hasn't suffered racism because she's successful and because you're unaware of any specific claims of racism on her part.

Wait much longer to start filling yours and it will be as a Wal-Mart greeter.

Hmm, that's more credit than you guys give me most other times....

Ah, right, the ideology crap.
Always trumps being a human around here.
Keep forgetting.

Guys, guys, guys...

The key to understanding Dicky is to realize that he is essentially a precocious 14 year-old. Clever but inexperienced, idealistic but jaded, resentful of having to live with his parents but not at a point where he is ready to move out of the nest.

Of course the fact that he's more than twice that age makes his schtick a bit tiresome. It's sort of like M*A*S*H--his nihlistic teenager bit has gone on for twice as long as his actual teenage years and he's still 34, going on 14.

So, we're not talking about Michelle Obama anymore?

OP was a bunch of nothing, so hadda go after someone, eh?

Okay, empty your venom sacks.
Board's too slow for negging.