Why I'll never vote for Obama...

He was pointing out the 'remedial civics' to folks like you Packard.

Not the country as a whole.

The flag is just a symbol, but symbols are symbols precisely because they have meaning.

If you don't believe, decorate your car with a few swastikas, and we'll see you in six to twelve months when you get out of the pokey and have internet access again.

And to a whole lot of people, the symbol is personal - in my case it represents what family members have fought, bled, and yes died for.

You don't agree with that? Fine, this is a free country.

But you sure as fuck aren't getting my vote - or my respect.

You assume that anyone that respects it is practicing empty jingoism - that is also disrespect.

Putting them on the same page as Obama himself.

Because they do know McCain's positions.

I'm not even part of that country. But given that this pic has been out and all over the place for many months, and given Obama's support so far, his "remedial civics" is certainly meant to re-educate a rather large part of "The People" about what they shall recognize as their symbol.

And when you start mistaking them for their meaning, that relationship is reversed. When you expect people to respect the symbol, while showing complete disregard for its meaning, you're just introducing an idol, a new tool for those desiring power.

Cue your swastika comparison.

Not exactly.

They're going to vote for Obama because somehow they feel he is going to 'change' Washington, and bring 'hope' to the country.

Regardless of what McCain or Hillary says.

Perhaps. Some certainly are. I'm still thinking a majority is more cynical. But then despite everyone claiming otherwise, I am an almost incurable optimist.

I 'believe' too....but not in the crap Obama is selling.

Which explains why you so often get cultural references over here incorrect.

Be that as it may...

Nope. Peter will be along shortly to tell you how full of it you are.

He was pointing out that there's different standards for a presidential candidate than a protester, and that valuing the symbol isn't only an observation of jingoistic dick waving.

Such as this next piece:

...where you take the fact that a lot of middle americans don't like people disrespecting the flag as a nice little jingo wank-fest.

This is a man who wants to be commander in chief.

If part of your job duties requires you to send men and women out under that symbol and to give their lives if the situation necessitates it, you'd better understand how important that symbol is.

No.

The 'remedial civics' is for idiots who believe that the flag is a symbol that the state dictates upon it's citizens.

Showing a minimum of respect to the symbol of a nation, not it's ideologies, not it's wars, not it's laws or policies, but it's PEOPLE (Republican, Democrat, Right, Left, White, Black, Protestant, Catholic, Atheist, Agnostic, Jew, etc) is what deference to the flag denotes. The People are the token by which the flag is defined, even though you and your ilk resent the shit out of it.

It's the exact same reason why you can't trot into a courtroom and tell the judge to fuck off if he accepts a verdict against you. It's not the judge, it's not the law, it's the will of The People.

Too bad you're too fucking dense, and too busy stroking your Obama-boner to understand that the issue isn't partisan.

Shhh... Peter.

Don't you know Packard knows what you meant even better than you do?

First of all, I have to tell you that that was easily one of the worst renditions of the US national anthem that I've ever had the misfortune of hearing.

That said, I can confidently say that I will never vote for Obama ...

Nice try. As I said this is just the last straw. It is his position on unions, his desire to raise capital gains taxes, his (and the dems in general) unbelievably irrational desire for a universal healthcare system, and his apparent acceptance of America hating people in his close family (his wife who was never proud of her country until her husband was going to be President) and friends (Rev. Wright) that disqualifies him from holding ANY office, let alone POTUS. This picture just illustrates the point he is only going through the motions of patriotism and pride in country himself - what he really wants is power.

Huh. I was always taught it was hand over your heart for the pledge of allegiance, but not for the anthem.

Besides, there's about a million other reasons not to vote for Obama. If you make your decision based on this, you're a fucking moron, IMNSHO.

So basically Whizzer, you're a partisan hack.

Gotcha.

Actually, I am not. I am against a number of Bush's policies as well. Like his liberal spending and government growth policies.

Wow. So many points to cover. I never said that I or anyone else shouldn't vote for Senator Obama because of this picture. I said his behavior was rude, bad form for a politician.

And I'm getting pretty tired of Packard likening our patriotism to the Nazis, can we ban him already?

Without watching the video, or hearing it's accompanying audio tracks, I'll stipulate that the anthem probably doesn't sound too hot, even professional singers will tell you that it's a damned hard song to sing, and most don't have the range.

:germany:

I every time the Hun gets all pissy when confronting people who actually take pride in their country.

Seems to be a pretty clear list of reasons in post #71 beyond "he's a filthy liberal".

Not that that alone wouldn't be sufficient cause.

It's not pride that tells me, that despite it's flaws, I live in the greatest country in the entire world and that all you mud hut dwellers are just jealous, it's truth.

Point of order: I didn't compare your flag to the swastika; Demiurge did.

The state? You wish. It's just one group of citizens trying to dictate what it means and how it should be treated to the rest.

If you disagree, start by explaining Obama to me. Is he

(a) not a citizen
(b) not actually disrespecting the symbol
(c) not a good enough citizen for "The People", for whom you speak, but he does not?

In light of hearing of the teachings he has been receiving over the past 20 years from Jeremiah Wright I can't help but wonder if there is more to his choice of not wearing a flag of putting his hand over his heart than he has stated.

Fair enough.

Insult retracted.

It's the anthem...the only requirement I was ever told is stand and respectful silence while it is played or sing along if appropriate.

It's the the pledge that requires hand over heart. And while not an Obama supporter, his site claims he did vote to require the pledge in secondary education institutions receiving public funds. Which doesn't sound like someone "against the pledge".

http://www.barackobama.com/factcheck/2007/11/12/obama_is_a_patriot.php

Oh, and if we don't have to concern ourselves with "empty words and gestures" anymore, I am very glad that we can dispense with 95% of all PC bullshit out there! Good news indeed!!

I wouldn't put my right hand over my heart for that shitty rendition of the anthem. Not only does the singer do a poor imitation of Whitney Houston, but it sounds like there's backing lyrics in case she forgets the words.

Blind patriotism and civil obedience was a major part of the Nazi takeover in their country. I'm not trying to say that you are guilty of being blindly patriotic or obedient, but that the comparison isn't so far of a stretch. If more people in Germany said, "No. Fuck you. You can take your iconography and your fancy hats and shove 'em." Germany wouldn't have rolled for the Nazi party so easily.

Basically, it is good to have dissenters.

My belly aches

^ Well, Bush has always been about gut feelings over heart and mind, so I guess that makes perfect sense . . .

Apparently Sokar thinks you should spam with new threads when you encounter information highly relevant to an old thread. As an insipid and particularly brain-dead supporter of the worst bottom feeding American politics has to offer, he's attuned to forgetting the immediate past and considering anything over a week old to be ancient and irrelevant history.