That is a meaningless comparison. The behaviors covered by "crime" and the qualifications for "rehabilitation" vary from place to place. And that's before you get into the abject retardation of comparing crime rates in one small country to a large nation of distinct, individual states, like Leach is trying to do in the "Fuck Africa" thread. There are more things that are considered "crime" in the US due to our stupid vice laws, for example. Sure, our crime rates are gonna be higher when you can get busted for carrying an ounce of cannabis or paying a willing woman to give you a BJ.
In terms of the ones that are roughly the same, the US comes out comfortably on top. Violent crime, for instance. I don't think you're interested in what works, so much as what makes you feel better.
So, that's your answer? Just keep building bigger prisons and keep putting the 'criminals' in there for longer and longer? Pardon me if I sound confused, but isn't it Conservatives (or Libertarians) who want to cut taxes? Stop taking money from the honest, hard-working American people? You don't think a better idea would be to re-educate these people so they are not put back in prison to soak up more tax money, but rather to become productive memebers of society so that, that many more people are paying taxes thereby reducing individual tax bills? You're right. I don't get that kind of thinking. It some of the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.
Incarceration works. Execution works. Dead or locked up, you're not hurting or stealing from anyone. That's all the success I need from a penal system. What I'm not interested in is impotent "solutions" that mainly serve to provide empty symbolism for bleeding heart douchebags to pat themselves on the back over. Some people don't deserve a second chance. Some people are unfit to live in civilization. If we had any continents left to use as prison colonies, I'd be all for it.
Restating that what makes you feel better works in the face of facts showing the opposite will not make it so, I'm afraid.
You lack imagination. There's no reason why inmates can't be put to work in a way that offsets the cost of their incarceration, maybe even net a profit that can be put into after school sports and tutoring programs. Lack of prison space cannot be an excuse to allow real criminals to walk free. You really don't understand that some people reject education as some kind of "defeat" or "surrender to the man".
Alright, explain to me how an executed murderer is able to kill more people. Then, explain to me how a burglar or armed robber is able to steal from anyone while he is locked in a cage. You can't, and nobody will respond with anything but deflections and red herrings. But those results are undeniable. It's got nothing to do with "feelings," and it's not meant as a deterrant or rehabilitation. It removes proven threats from society on an individual basis. What's missing is the will to rinse and repeat until entire neighborhoods, entire communities are cleansed of human filth.
Who the hell is suggesting they walk free? Now you're just throwing stuff out there willynilly trying to make an arguement. As long as the criminals are "behind bars", why not 'train' them in such a way that they can more easily adapt back into society when they get out? Instead of 'doing nothing' for 16 hours a day (and sleeping the other 8), why not teach them job and life skills? Where the fuck is the harm in that? You really don't understand that some people say stuff just to get on tv. You don't understand ... You're just like my 5 year old - no idea how good he has it. some people might call it 'ungrateful', I call it 'being a child'. You have no idea how 'good' you have it, UA. And you want to punish anyone who doesn't have 'it' as good as you do.
Anyone who uses the term "rehabilitation," brainiac. Because I'm not interested in seeing most of them "get out". Once you sift out the victimless vice crimes, the prison population would be mostly people who should be locked up and fucking left there. It's really convenient to ignore the concepts of "deserving" and "worthiness," but I'm not playing along. Actually, I do know exactly how good I have it, and I don't need you to fucking tell me. While I'm FAR from perfect and did NOT start out from ideal circumstances, I manage to exert enough discipline and effort from myself to make my own way without victimizing anyone. I'm not fucking impressed with the "my family was poor and I had to watch all of my friends get rich dealing drugs" bullshit. If you had a chance, ANY chance, I expect you to take advantage of it at the first opportunity. If not, fuck you. Enjoy your three hots and a cot, asshole.
There's nothing wrong with teaching them life skills. The problem, as so many people keep pointing out to you, is that these folks have to WANT to change. And most of them don't. Boo hooo, they had a hard life. It's no excuse, and it's no reason the rest of us have to put up with our livelihood being threatened by their theft and violence.
Jesus fucking Christ, woman. If you're attempting to rehabilitate someone, it implies that you intend to release them at some point. Release = allowed to walk free. Their "one chance" is what they burned up the first time they chose to do something they knew was so horribly wrong.
Laugh! I have career criminal family members. Almost everyone I know has family members that have done some time, or or currently serving, or will be eventually headed there. You know what motivates someone to make the decision to not go back to prison? They DECIDE they want to make a change. Yes, that's the bottom line. You can give them training + opportunities + support up the wazoo...it's up to them to stay free once released - just as it was up to them to get locked up in the first place. Sadly, most realize this many years into a long sentence...when it's too late, and they are too old. But still, they must make a choice....freedom or prison. You know why prison is such a violent place? Because it's full of violent criminals. If they are that big a threat.....kill them. No matter what they did on the outside, give them one....just one...chance on the inside. If they go apeshit and injure or kill someone.....shoot them dead, and randomly select prisoners to dig their grave + bury them in front of everyone.
You're so close to seeing the problem, but you keep falling on your ass. If it means society accepting the risk of being victimized again by someone who as proven themselves a threat, the answer is an unqualified YES. We don't need to be wasting resources trying to "fix" someone who thought it was a good idea to rob a liquer store or break into someone's house even one fucking time.
You're not scoring any points with hysterical slippery slope bullshit. The punishment still needs to fit the crime, and only murder really fits the "execution" bill.
Then I'm not understanding this statement: If you're not planning to keep someone in prison for life, then, at some point, you are planning to release them, right?
I think, part of the problem is that we design our prison system to be a punishment in of itself, so we turn a blind eye to what goes on in there until a riot breaks out. You'll have a hard time rehabilitating people when you throw sociopaths and murderers in together and let them rule over the rest of their inmates. In fact, it's probably more likely that people in there will become even less redeemable. If we're going to get in this argument over retribution and rehabilitation, we have to talk about prison reform first.
That's exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want to 'take away' prisons. I want them to change. And, of course, remove the violent offenders from the rest of the 'population'.
Artist rendering of the liberal prisons of the future. Just shower them with enough love and understanding and they're sure to come around and see the errors of their ways!
Abolish the prisons and sentence criminals to involuntary servitude in the infantry? Yes, I think so.
I don't think so. I was in the military and I knew a few soldiers who were given the choice "join the army or go to jail". ... some of the worst soldiers I ever met.
The options are not limited to "lock them up for life" or "send them to fucking Sunday School and plead with them to act like human beings." The ones I would personally consider releasing would be the ones with some realistic hope of acting in good conscience without any further reinforcement than the punishment they just received. When someone is 18 and sitting in a state prison is not the time to start parenting them. Sure, a little vocational training or something wouldn't be a bad thing, but I shouldn't have to fucking pay for it.
No, I'd rather keep them too busy for that by putting them to work doing something that offsets the cost of imprisoning them. It lacks a touchy-feely angle, but the idea still has potential.
Look at my 3rd to last sentence. Tell me how that's gonna happen with out it being a police state. Stingy conservatives my ass. Look at the glorious programs that are full of fail in very liberal states. The criminal justice system was full of 20 years of compassionate rehab, not punishment, through out the 70s and 80s and it did exactly shit. It wasnt until the expansion of the prison system and stiffer penalties that the crime rate even began to fall.
Strawman Its been tried, it doesnt work for a majority of the population. Get it through your thick head. You can not make reality bend to your rose colored glasses view of how things should be. Until there is the absolute and utter destruction of the criminal mentality (I.e. I want my shit for free by any means necessary and for the least amount of effort), until the eradication of the mentality that anyone who does try to walk the straight and narrow and do right is a sell out and suck up that needs to be punished by their peers, until people disabuse themselves of the notion that they have no personal responsibility then no amount of rehab will ever work. Re-education will work not work. You cant teach people who are gaming the system to bide their time in order to get an early release. You cant rehabilitate those who dont want to learn. UNLESS..... You are willing to go with rehab and punishment that is so draconian, so harsh, so distasteful that the fear of facing that again outweighs the desire to return to a life of crime. Do you really want to live in that world? Those programs are already offered. You cant understand that people dont want to partake of those programs. They would rather do their relatively easy time, get out, and go back to what they were doing and hope they dont get caught again. Problem is that they are too stupid to realize that they will get caught again. Again, you cant rehab folks that dont want to be. You're right. I don't get that kind of thinking. It some of the most ridiculous crap I've ever heard.[/QUOTE]
