Soo... this little Sig .380

What do you guys think about the P238? I've heard that they are based on the 1911. That seems stupid to me. Sure, they look alike a little bit, and sure they're both single action, but it's missing a big part of the 1911 - the grip safety.

I liked it, but would never buy or carry one because of the safety. Plus, you can get .40's that have around the same dimensions.

What do you think?

When John Browning originally designed the 1911, it didn't have the grip safety. He only added it after the Army pitched a fit and demanded both the grip safety and the external thumb safety.

The "logic" a lot of people used and use (disabling the grip safety has become very popular...again) is that it's one more mechanical thing to fail at the moment of truth. But, the design has proven to be so timeless, that any serious fault in that area is going to be on a per gun basis. I've never, EVER thought that the grip safety might fail at the moment of truth.

Point of order. Browning's original design did in fact have the grip safety. The Army demanded the active safety.

Colt submitted what would eventually become the 1911 in the fall of 1906. The Army tested it and sent it back for revisions. John Browning didn't add the grip safety until 1908. He replaced the double link recoil system with the single link system and barrel bushing in 1909. He added the thumb safety in 1910.

So you're saying that Browning pushed for a single action auto loader with no safety mechanism whatsoever?

...and here I thought he was pretty smart.

Not saying he was right or wrong, but you've got to remember something.

The idea that a safety of any kind as a means to prevent a negligent discharge or discharge by person other than the operator is only a product of the last few decades. From it's original conception, the safety was solely, completely, and wholly designed to keep the gun from discharging if it was dropped. "Safeties" served no other purpose.

For centuries, the only safety that was absolutely required was the one between a human's ears.

That's interesting if you consider the SAA.

No way in hell it can go off negligently, but it very well could go off if it was dropped...or even if the hammer were bumped...which is why most gunfighters carried the hammer down on a dry cylinder.

That's strange. Thumb safeties and grip safeties won't prevent the inertia acting on the firing pin in the event of a drop.

I think that was Elwood's point. He's saying that safeties "back in the day" were meant to prevent accidental discharges, whereas safeties nowadays are meant to prevent negligent discharges.

So... about that .380?

I gave up on .380s a long time ago (though I should never have sold my PPK), because a) everything I ever read about them in actual shooting cases pegs them as too weak to be reliable as a manstopper, and b) there are so many compact 9mms these days that are the same size as the average .380 - well, what's the point? If you want a compact gun, you may as well get one the same size with more power.

Well, I'm actually looking for something to use as a gym gun for when I workout. It has to be super concealable.

Kel-Tec P-3AT.

Hey man, no need to swear at me!

But... seriously? Don't Kel-Tec's jam like crazy?

I've never heard of that. They seem to pretty popular BUGs.

It's the same size as a Smith 637 Chief's Special. It's several ounces heavier when loaded than a loaded Smith 637CS. It holds one more round than a Smith 637CS.

However, I'll take 5 rounds of .38 +P+ over 6 rounds of .380 any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

It's the same size as a Smith 360PD Chief's Special. It's several ounces heavier when loaded than a loaded Smith 360PD CS. It holds one more round than a Smith 360PD CS.

However, I'll take 5 rounds of .357 Magnum over 6 rounds of .380 any day of the weeks and twice on Sundays.

So you're saying stick with my S&W 642 .356 at the gym? I'm game with that... what holster?

And please don't say thunderwear.

I mean, if it's the answer, say it... but please, let there be another answer.

My favorite concealable weapon is the P 232 Sig-Sauer. .380, seven rounds and actually very attractive and super easy control.
The first time I shot a gun, it was this one and my groups were super tight at 7 yards.
As for the lack of power argument, just empty the entire clip into the perp. I recommend Hogue grips.

Besides the safety on the slide and the grip/palm safety, what's another way to prevent a 1911/A1 from firing?

On mine? Don't breathe on the trigger.

It depends on the model and manufacturer. Some have firing pin blocks. Some don't.

Also, on a lot of older guns I've seen (including my first ever Series 70 Colt), the slide-stop pin and the grooved "catch" on the slide-stop's thumb pad gets worn and won't allow the weapon to properly go into battery because the barrel link isn't in the right spot. It'll "look" right, but it's really not.

I discovered it after a few failures to feed and during drill. When not inside the trigger guard, I place the pad of my trigger finger on the pin. I noticed that even the slightest pressure popped the pin out of place just enough to make the gun fail.

I have no idea what to tell you. When I carry my 637, it's in a super old rough suede Bianchi IWB that I just drop in my pocket. Outside of that and my ankle-rig for uniform carry, I have no other solution to offer.

What about something like that sweet scandium airweight S&W we fondled at the Sportsman's warehouse?

That thing was scary slick.

That's what I was looking for.

If the weapon won't go into battery it won't fire.

If you push back on the muzzle it puts the pistol out of battery and it won't fire.

I've been told that several Police Officers have died in the line of duty because their Glocks didn't have a safety like the 1911 that held the slide in place when holstering. On drawing, their weapon was just outside of battery and... no click.

I switched to a 1911 from an XD40 because it did that exact thing several times when I was training.

Except for the Glock 18, I either currently or have owned at least one of every Glock model chambered in 9mm Para, .40SW, and .45ACP. I'm also a Glock Certified Armorer and Firearms Instructor. I've never had that happen to me or anyone I've ever known. Me thinks whomever gave you that information doth protest to much.

Besides, it doesn't make sense. It takes a couple pounds of force to start moving the slide back and take the weapon out of battery. If you have to exert a couple pounds of force to holster your weapon, you're doing it wrong. It should just drop right in. Even then, the polymer frame has a portion that goes all the way under the slide up to the muzzle side of the frame. When holstering in a Retention Level II or Retention Level III holster, that's the first part of the weapon to come into contact with the holster. It'd take the blunt of any force you were using to cram the gun in the holster.

We're talking about IWB holsters. My Milt Sparks Versa Max holster would never do that to a gun it was made for. My Skyops holster for my XD40? If I don't put my gun in the holster before I put it in my belt, it will put the gun out of battery.

So, I should have clarified that we were talking about IWB wear, and not duty holsters, paddle holsters, etc.

The guy who told me that does tons of training - in TN he trains SWAT and Tactical Teams as well as doing a lot of civilian training. He is also commander of his sheriff's department tac team.

Let me know if my clarification made sense.

It does. But, you've got to remember, no one is always right. Not even me. Again, I've never heard of this from Glocks. Ever, and I've spent the last several years traveling all over the nation accumulating training experiences.

I'm not trying to get into a dick waving contest with your friend. I really don't give a shit. But, I've got the same creds he does and I've never heard of it.

Oh, I'm not trying to get you into a dick waiving contest - not at all. I respect you, and I respect him. Like you said, no one is always right. Both of you have different experience sets and because of that, different insight.

That I respect you is the reason I'm trying to pick your brain.

I must confess to never having owned a Glock. I might make one my next gun - I've had an eye on that 10mm that the Danes use for their far north patrols in the Arctic circle to defend against polar bears.