The Forge needs more balance

From an European point of view, Obama is nothing more than a classical centrist. People on the left would never call him "one of their own".

Yes, I agree, his is a hopeless opportunist. That's why I consider him a failure. He is a disappointment, pure and simple. He's a slave of big business. He has no guts.

Disappointment?
In a politician?
Weird...

You forgot my Tea Room faction!

Yeah... You know, sometimes people have irrational hopes. We as a species live from irrational hopes. We believe in dreams. There were people who even thought that R. Reagan was a good man. I know it's weird, but some people believed in him, and still do! Yes, it's weird, but we are only human.

A number of problems with your analysis - the first being that there are ANY prolific right wing extremests here. there ARE several "libertarian extremeists" (if there is such a thing) but...

I think most libertarians would take exception to the idea that it is a "right wing" philosophy. I'm aware that a linear continuum puts Libertarian to the right, not too far from amarchy, and opposite totalitarianism....but most leftists would deny they have any sympathy for totalitarianism too and try to claim that that is a right wing philosophy as well (come to think of it, pretty much ANY -ism that has a bad reputation is claimed by liberals to be "right wing" but I digress.

Anyway, the point is that political philosophy isn't really a linear universe.

Well, rather than toss out contrasting opinions, let's just run down the member list - ranked by most posts (and skipping the terminally inactive posters) - and see what we find:

1. Lt. Mewa - not a conservative
2. Diacanu - ditto
3. Uncle Albert - ask him about something like gay rights or abortion
4. Maud Dib - most right wing so far but hates Republicans too
5. Volpone - Obama basher, I'll let him speak to how "right wing" he is
6. Bulldog - hardly ever posts
7. Chris - VERY not right wing
8. garamet - ditto
9. Dan leech - neither right wing or American
10. oldfella - not sure how he'd describe himself but granted
11. Bear - granted
12. forbin - only on guns
13. Tamar - granted, but not on every subject
14. Me - more libertarian than conservative, and less so than in the past, but granted
15. Anc - nope
16. Marso - hardcore libertarian
17. Faceman - nope
18. Elwood - see marso, also not much on bashing lefties...in fact, there hasn't been many with that proclivity listed so far
19. Paladin - again libertarian I would assume...but I'll give you this too
20. Evenflow - I don't get him as right wing, even though libertarian
21. Bock - granted
22. Megatron - not of the sort you mean
23. Ramen - granted
24. Clyde - not really, though he has little tolerance for bad arguments
25. Zombie - granted

Through the top 25, I don't see one VERY vocal right winger that doesn't proceed from Libertarian view points which, as i said, isn't really right-wing at all, except arguably Bock. Further, I see about 10-12 of those Libertarian minded sorts, and I see haf a dozen or so that are on the opposite side of those in most discussions, and most of those the more prolific in terms of number of posts

(I can't really sort for "most posts in 2010" or whatever but i don't think there's a huge variance from the top list)

looking further...with less detail...

Defender - no
CD - ok
El Chup - no
Rick - no
Tex - not really
ecky - no
O2C - ok I guess
shootER - ok I guess
apostle - this one is your best example
EP - eh...sure
Chuck - no
Lanz - mostly
PGT - no
Baba - no
Bailey - no
Caboose - ok
Demi - ok
Scorp - ok
Flashy - no
Sokar - yeah
Quas - I have no idea what he thinks
Dayton - yeah
Async - ok
Packard - no
Azure - kinda
Lethsoda - no
14th D - no
TKO - no
Spaceturkey - no
Liet - no, hell no

That's all the reasonably active posters in the top 75

that last group has 30 names and 14 clear "no" votes among them.

I'm sorry Jen I'm just not seeing it.

Wanna hear a joke?

So a Liberal walks into Wordforge. He says, "Hi I'm a Liberal." Wordforge looks at each other and collectively pulls out their guns and fires upon him like a Utah firing squad, killing him. The end.

Wordforge is about as balanced as a deer in a pack of wolves.

Nova, I would have issues with identifying anybody who advocates the wanton use of force as a libertarian. A distinction must be drawn between gun-nut non-Republican right-wingers and libertarians who actually respect the liberties of others.

Great joke.

Granted what?

Answer carefully.....

to whom do you refer?

Granted, as with Marso and some others, that Jen would perceive you as a right winger and not just a libertarian (as opposed to for instance UA) - I'm not applying the label myself, just conceding the ones he might make the claim for to prove that even by his definition, it's not really that unbalanced in terms of population.

It just LOOKS unbalanced to the lefties because they keep getting their asses handed to them by the better "non-left" posters (not that all "non-left" posters are better than all lefties, but there are a half dozen or so on the "non left" who regularly kick rhetorical ass on the left around here and that means it looks unbalanced)

Dang, another list I didn't make!!

I have some conservative views (against gun control, want lower taxes, smaller government, etc), but I'm much more of a libertarian.

Not many conservatives are in favor of legalizing drugs and gay marriage.

I wish someone would make a list like that for "persona summarized in five words or less".

I've never understood why boards got so pissy about so much as mentioning a "rival" board, as though peole can't visit both places at once. It's one thing if a new poster is only there to promote said board and nothing else, but one board gave me a warning just for linking a topic to another board.

And those "smarts" were pretty quickly corrected.

I don't want to hear about "the only ones shouting." There were crowds of idiots with their own little signs and flags portraying Obama as various sorts of characters, including Jesus.

There were enough liberal whackjobs talking about him bringing peace to the world, ending the war, ending racism, legalizing pot, and the list goes on. And anyone who saw him as a moderate was just as blind.

There have been competent liberals here. As mentioned above, Raoul and Alphaman hold their own--and because they can carry their weight, they don't get beaten and flamed every time they figuratively open their mouths. Gul and marathon were great. PGT and Packard were pretty good as well. They're all gone. I think normal people maybe outgrow Wordforge, like Puff the Magic Dragon. Or maybe Purgatory. I don't know if that is why any of the above left. I have a theory about why marathon left, but that isn't for me to say.

And before anyone trumpets "SEE!? Liberals are smarter than conservatives! They outgrow Wordforge." I'll point out that Storm and possibly Jeriko have left. So has Jeff Cooper Disciple.

What is a "right wing extremist?" And how does one differ from a libertarian?

I think it can be a little more confusing to talk about the right than the left in the US because while the left has political representation that works to advance a left-wing agenda in the democrats, the right has no such representation because republicans consistently fail to act conservatively in any way. So what might be considered "right wing extremism" by a politician, D or R, in Washington is just acceptable mainstream opinion by your average American right-winger.

I have views all over the spectrum, which is why I am a registered undecided. I have voted for people from multiple parties in the past. None of them fit and I won't bother associating myself with one just to have a letter to cheerlead around.

That doesn't stop people from accusing me of being an extreme right wing religious nut fairly often.

Gul left in no small part to the Great Board Blow-Up in 2007. I've seen him pop up once since all that went down.

The last time Jeriko was a regular poster was within the first few months that I was here, which was half a decade ago.

I think the problem is that WF has, from birth, been a very free speech board - as Storm called it, somewhere to put your feet up, spit on the floor and call the cat a bastard - as it was what the TNZ exiles, regardless of place in the political spectrum, wanted.

Now the main proponents of free speech are libertarians, social liberals and paleo-conservatives.

The libertarians and social liberals are diametrically opposed in their opinions on economic liberalism, and are very verbal and argumentative about that.

The paleo-conservatives and social liberals are diametrically opposed in their opinions on social liberalism, and they are also very verbal and argumentative about that.

So you get a board that looks very 'right wing', when in actual fact it holds a lot of competing philosophies, so when new members join, who don't associate with the 'right-wing', they feel a need to stamp their presence, which of course leads to the customary WF autoimmune response...

My opinion anyway. And it ain't humble

In general the trend on Wordforge seems to be that many who identify themselves as libertarians support things like closed borders, foreign wars of intervention, genocide against religious and ethnic groups they dislike, et cetera. I challenge that this sort of hypocrisy, calling for our government to leave them alone while simultaneously demanding that it go after the browns, means that these particular people are not libertarians at all. Libertarianism demands as a requisite mindset that an equal footing is given to all based on their sovereign human rights, and altered in the negative only by the actions of individual agencies. Common Wordforge libertarianism (not all, mind you) refers to liberty, freedom, and small government for the vaguely defined us, and not for them.

Personally speaking, I think my views have moved from Republican / conservative to far more Libertarian over the years. If anything, I feel I'm less strident politically than I used to be. The clarification of beliefs that has come from the discussion here (and some other places) has made that possible.

I think what puts me and a couple of others in a relatively small, harder-to-classify category is religion. One of the things that almost assuredly gets an argument out of me is when someone tries to cookie-cutter all believers or even all Christians. The fact that we're here and we keep coming back means that we don't fit those stereotypes in the first place but we still get people trying to stick them to us.

I've never been a political party kind of guy. I vote individual and/or policy, not party. That said, my conservatism has become leavened with libertarian leanings over the years. These days I'm more "disappointed" than anything else, as the country seems to be drifting farther and farther from realistic policies into ideologically-driven fruit loop territory. You've got the "progressives" (oh, how I love that they use that term for themselves) who think you can tax a country into prosperity, and the far right, who think you can church everyone into happiness. Both sides blithely oblivious to the verdict of history in the real world, which quite clearly shows that they're both completely wrong.

I dunno if it's so much about idealogy so much as how they act. TKO and myself joined here as teenagers and were both pretty liberal, yet it took years for me to be respected because I was misinformed at best and a hypocritical cuntbag at worse when I would argue anything from politics to board issues. Likewise, many of WF's most universally dispised members were right wingers (ie, apostle, KIRK1ADM, Neurtered Zone [-]Refugee[/-] Retard).

I'm not naive enough to believe new leftist members will be accepted as quickly as a more conservative poster, but from my own experience, as long as they aren't a complete assclown and grow a thick skin, they'll usually be left alone by the majority of Forgers in a few days.

I tend to suffer from the same but in reverse. I am, by British standards a conservative. They only person on this board board to my standpoint is Hood, with ecky not too distant. Yet, because I am, but American standards, middle of the road, and some might say like the "intellectualising city folk" mentioned above the WF rightwingers who don't know much about me routinely call me a lefty and a liberal. That, for me, is utterly offensive as my views are certainly not of the likes of Dan Leach and tards like Liet.

I tend to receive rep from both sides. However, I find it more insulting to receive reps from the likes of Liet and henryhill because I find that it makes a mockery of what I post. The reason I say this is because I try and think about and debate each issues on its merit. But they do not do so.

The problem with the left wingers on this board is that they are not typical of the left. Whether or not you agree with the left thet fact is that there are still plenty of leftwingers in this world who are capable of having intelligent debate. We used to have some such as PGT. However, all we have are morons like RickRetard and Liet, who will argue without merit or basis just because they think that is the left winger thing to do, and they will never back down or leave something alone, even if they have long since made a complete fool of themselves. You then have people like garamet, who just abuses standard left wing opinions to troll, and then the likes of Dan Leach who makes bold statements but doesn't bother to think about how to back them up.

While you may not agree with the left, the left isn't full of idiots. Unfortunately the WF left serve to remove the dignity and credibility of sensible left wing debaters, and with the sensible ones gone all that is left is a circle jerk of American right wingers who revel in their own righteousness and reduce themselves to calling everyone who is not as right wing as them liberals, even if its not correct. There does need to be proper balance here. I really wish we could have a good balanced of credible left wing debaters, and a few more conservative Brits or Europeans, like me and Hood, to really provide a mix.

Whether their opinions are right and right it is now tiresome to watch the right wing Americans on here constantly contratulating themselves over the same old stuff. It means there is nothing interesting to debate because you know what answer is coming in advance, even if its a dumb answer. The worst are the extreme rightwingers because they are just like retards like Liet, but on the other wide. The difference however, is while Liet will get his arse handed to him, the extreme rightwinger will be told he's right, even if he comes out with a nutjob comment. Because ten people agree with an opinion, it doesn't mean its right and thats what WF has lost, a spectrum of people from all political standpoints who are prepared to challenge all sorts of issues with both right and left wingers.

I don't think I fit into any of the traditional categories.

I despise almost all politicians and could care less about their day to day machinations, so I'm definitely not a Republican or Democrat. If you just have to slap a label on me, call me an Independent or maybe just Apolitical.

And my views are all over the place. And it depends on how you define terms like liberal, conservative, libertarian, etc... it varies from country to country, by person, and by generation. So I don't think any of those terms really fit me all that well.

Just a sample of where I'm at with some of the common issues of the day:




Abortion: Against mid to late term abortions unless there is a medical emergency, but not for religious reasons.

Gay Marriage: Go for it. Could care less. Hey, if every other guy in the world was homosexual that just means more girls for me!

Death Penalty: I would like to see this used more. Some people just need killin'. Rapists and violent murderers would fall into this category.

Affirmative Action: I'd like to see all of these programs eliminated. They served a purpose at one time, but they are no longer necessary.

Environment: I fully support protection of the natural environment and the development of eco-friendly materials and energy sources and believe more protections should be in place to safeguard animals and plants that share the world with us. There is no place in the Universe like planet Earth, and we should treasure our native biosystems and wildlife.

Immigration: I openly welcome educated legal immigrants to our country, and if they follow all the rules they should be free to live and worship as they wish... but we need to tighten border security and deport illegals. Criminals should be imprisoned or killed.

Gun Rights: I support the right to defend yourself or your family. On the other hand, I think guns are handed out way too freely. You should have to prove that you are of sound mind, competent and capable of using a gun properly. If not, your license should be revoked and your guns should be confiscated. If we're talking about psychos and violent offenders, then hell yeah I'm a gun grabber. But normal, law abiding folks? Nah.

Health Care: Complicated subject. Not really sure where I stand on this. I am a health care provider and it is my job to help people in need whenever I can... but I've worked hard and paid my dues to get where I am, and I want to make good money. Is there a way to accomplish both? I think everyone should get at least minimum access to basic health care services, because that can affect the entire community. Yes, it will cost taxpayers money but I'd rather spend it on health care than on...

Foreign Intervention: It depends on the circumstances, really. I wholeheartedly support the elimination of terrorists and violent fanatics, whether they are homegrown militias or Islamic fanatics. But I have serious issues with the way we've handled this issue since 9/11. Not so sure about assaulting and occupying entire foreign nations. To me, that isn't what America is about.




Based on the above, I guess you could consider me a libertarian... although I do support some government programs, so maybe not.

I can't blame the liberals. I mean, if I was a liberal, I'd hate to be constantly proven to be retardingly wrong every day I posted my insane, moronic viewpoints and would leave for more stupid pastures, too.