What part of legal immigration don't you understand?

I am planning to live abroad for a few years once I get my MA, yes, but ultimately the goal is to retire to my native land, Seattle.

I imagine that you guys wouldn't be so urgently concerned about illegal immigration. Too bad we can't empirically test that theory.

Yes we would.

Let me get this straight. You want illegal immigrants to have the same rights and privaleges as a legal US citizen, am I right? Yet illegals do not pay taxes because as far as the government is concerned they don't actually LIVE in the US. Therefore, by not paying taxes, it lies on legal citizens to foot the bill to give people that thumb their noses at your immigration law the same benefits that those born in the US or who went through proper channels to become a citizen. The only reason illegal immigrants in the US are equated with Mexicans is because the majority of illegal immigrants in the US ARE Mexicans, it has nothing to do with racism and everything to do with fact. If the majority of illegals came from Canada I would expect to be treated the same way coming over your borders as Mexicans are treated right now. If you turn a blind eye to illegal immigration, you stop defending your nation's sovereignty and jeopardize everything, both good and bad, that your forefathers built. I'm not saying your system is perfect, because it's far from it, but it's far better than no system at all.

1. I do not want to draw any distinction between legal and illegal immigration. I want all immigration to be legal through a process of liberalising our immigration policies.
2. Immigrants (legal and illegal) should have the same responsibilities as citizens. That would include paying taxes.
3. That said, I do not support social welfare programs, of any variety. By no means whatsoever do I support extending public benefits to illegal immigrants, but I do not support extending them to non-taxpaying citizens either, or taxpaying citizens for that matters.
4. Not disagreeing about why illegal immigrants are equated with Mexicans and Latinos. I think that a large part of reactionary America's problem with "illegal immigration" is due to that fact. Granted, they tend to hate any large scale immigrant group, as evidenced by the Irish and Germans.

To sum it up, my ideal would be residence = citizenship = paying taxes != welfare. Hope that clarifies it a bit.

Actually, I think there would be a difference in reaction if the illegal immigrants were Canadian. For one, they wouldn't be telling us that Americans are racist if they didn't want them to come here legally.

But the big difference would be cultural - there wouldn't be nearly as large a visible impact in society if 20 million Canadians, speaking English, already acclimated to the predominant culture, came to the States.

And of course it wouldn't hurt that said Canadians would have far higher literacy rates, higher percentage of degrees, and far less likely to join Canadian based gangs.

The biggest difference is culture, not race.

That being said, I'd still oppose them coming over illegally in massive waves because it's illegal, we have the right to determine our own immigration policies, and its presumptive and irresponsible in the extreme to feel that another country owes you a livelihood.

But yeah, the noise to signal ratio would be lower. There certainly are people that don't like hispanics that are anti-illegal immigrant.

But most of those are anti-immigrant, period.

On the flip side no one in their right mind would go through all that when there's a simple albeit illegal alternative.

If anything it's nt offensive to legal immigrants. It's sad that legal immigrants are so dumb.

1. Everyone immigrating legally would be the ideal for every nation. Making immigration easier is definitely noble, but there should always be criteria to fulfill before being allowed to become a citizen. I agree it should be easier for poor folk to emigrate from their home country, but it should also be harder for people with criminal records in their home country, or who aren't educated enough to get work in their adoptive homeland, and other potential barriers to having a respectable quality of life in their new home, to actually move. Basically, if they're going to end up being a drain on their new country (for example, not being able to hold a job and relying on social welfare to get by), then they should be barred from entering in the first place.
2. I agree that illegals should have the same responsibilities, but how would you ENFORCE it? How can you make an illegal immigrant pay taxes when they don't exist in the IRS database? Can't collect from someone who, according to your records, does not exist.
3. Whether you support social welfare has no real bearing, because it currently exists. By saying illegals should have the same rights as legals says that they should be entitled to collecting social welfare, whether you support welfare or not. By putting them on an equal footing with legal citizens, you give them access to everything that a citizen is entitled to.
4. There may be an element of racism with regard to some peoples' stance on illegal immigration, but they are far from a majority. I can guarantee that there are more people outraged about illegal immigration for economic, social, or other reasons than there are people that just don't want Mexicans living in the US.

As an added note, I can all but guarantee that the quality of legal immigrants in the US - that is, immigrants with some sort of intelligence and/or a usable skillset that can translate into the ability to find and keep a job - is much, much higher than our revolving-door immigration system that we have here in the Great White North. Your system isn't perfect, but it's far better than ours.

There's nothing wrong with running a background check on prospective immigrants and having some form of registration, certainly. When you get to our current situation where honest, hard-working Mexicans are turned into criminals because we discriminate for innocent factors like national origin rather than criminal record, it becomes an issue. And I'd like to note that it really doesn't take any education to work in America, particularly in the jobs illegal immigrants are likely to seek. Skip ahead a generation or two and they'll be fully assimilated, productive members of society.

The same way you'd enforce it with anybody who was born here. Of course that'd be contingent on a system of registration, like I said earlier.

That's true. My views on citizenship are obviously very far away from being practical at this point, and would take a lot of reform in other sectors (like public welfare) to achieve. For now, I'd be content with barring them from social services until and unless they pay taxes.

I don't know whether you're a dual or a new member, so maybe you're not aware of this yet, but Wordforge has a large population of hateful, xenophobic reactionaries. Many of the members here support the wholesale genocide of Arabs, for instance. Obviously in reality the issue is a lot more complex than just racism, but considering the nature of the population on this board...

To tell you the truth, I'm not very familiar with Canadian immigration policy. Could you describe your system?

If illegals were to register, they wouldn't really be illegal immigrants would they. The problem is, if they gave a crap about registering, paying US taxes, etc, then they'd enter legally in the first place.

Anyway, I'm definitely a new member here, not some dual account, so I can't speak for the views of the majority of Wordforge members, but I can say that the population of Wordforge is a poor example of the views of the majority of people in general. Just saying.

As for Canadian immigration policies, they don't really matter. Just come in claiming you're a refugee. They do investigate your claim, but in the meantime you become a landed immigrant. After several years living in Canada, they may decide your claim was BS, but by that time they can't find you because you've fallen off the grid. There's a reason Americans fear terrorists crossing the Canadian border...it's because it's pretty damn easy for them to LEGALLY enter Canada. I don't know the gory details of Canadian immigration policy, just as I don't know the details of US immigration policy, but I worry more about legal first-generation Canadian citizen than I ever would worry about a legal first-generation American citizen.

this explains much.....
BTW how is the Mexican invasion up there? At least as bad as Phoenix, I imagine!

Yeah, that's my point. If we make the process easier, there won't be a benefit to come in illegally. As it is, it's way too hard for the average rural Mexican immigrant to get in legally, hence the border jumping issue.

Agreed 100%, which is why I'm addressing it as an issue of racism here. I wouldn't do so in reality.

I spent three years living in Los Angeles and still live in California, so I'd wager I've more experience with the issue than some hick in Bumblefuck, Georgia.

PS - Welcome to Wordforge, Wizard!

I can't say that I agree with lowering our standards to discourage illegal immigration either. Illegal Immigration should be discouraged by the law. If you're an illegal, there are strict penalties. If you knowingly hire one, there are strict penalties.

We think the government we have doing one of its legitimate duties by us is a good thing. And the only racism in play here comes from those who believe that foreign nationals should be exempt from the law based on their skin color.

My mother, who was a legal immigrant from Belgium and got in the 'easy' way (being married to my dad), put it this way after she became a citizen with the express purpose of helping her mother immigrate over (who had to return to Belgium when her cancer relapsed, another story):
"I went through this hellish immigration process to come over here, why should anyone else be able to avoid this? That's really insulting to any immigrant who came in through the legal process."

What part of this am I supposed to be shocked or revolted by?

Try becoming an immigrant citizen of Canada, or Australia or hell, almost any first world country.

given the same total numbers, and the same demands on the social infrastructure, I'd be every bit as unhappy if they were Swedes.

"Fuck them, I suffered and so should they." Probably not the attitude I'd take.

I don't recall asking you to be either.

The attitude I'd take is, "Honest people don't like cheaters."

Guns are banned. You skirt the law to keep your arsenal. You're now a cheater.

The law says I have a right to own guns. The law says there is a legal process for immigration.

Strawman.

The law is changed. The law is arbitrary. You are no longer allowed to own guns, yet you violate the law anyway. The law has no moral weight; the law has no objective value.

Ahhh, you'd be fuckin' 'em, everyone would be fuckin' 'em.

I would fight to restore the rule of law. You would fight for anarchy.

I would not fight for anarchic liberty. I am a pacifist and do not believe the use of force is ever just.

That's a nice sounding platitude, but when the chips are down and people have their back against the wall, nearly all will fight, those who won't die, and evolution removes it from the gene pool.

Then you'll be the second one in a FEMA coffin. actormike will be first.

Chaaaoosssss....uh!

Not planning to reproduce anyway, so I'm already removed from the gene pool voluntarily. If running and hiding doesn't work, so be it.