Star Trek: Picard.

Even ENT is better than Discovery.

All of them are better than 90% of the other shit on tv. So, stop arguing about it or they’ll stop making them completely.

Did Picard ever address whether or not Picard's android body needs to shit or piss?

Enough to make the endings in Return of the King seem short.

People's mileage will vary, but there are people who love love love Voyager. I tend to doubt that you can find many fans who are passionate about ENT, and of course it has the stigma of only going 4 seasons and the not-completely-undeserved rep of being a franchise-killer.

As a TNG fanboy, I would have to say I would absolutely want to watch a Picard/TNG movie, even knowing how hit-and-miss Picard was.

I don’t think Enterprise was a “franchise killer” so much as it was the last iteration before everyone, including the writers, were sick of it. Season 3 got way off track as the series would/should have been more about bring about the beginning of the Federation.

It's either a Picard movie or he'll need to keep slumming it in the Yorkshire Tea ads:

Sorry, mom.

JJ Trek came out 4 years later, so "franchise fatigue" was bullshit.
They just needed to rotate out the creatives, but the Hollywood system is almost as bad as Washington for being able to throw the bad blood out.

They not only rotated out the creatives but pretty much threw out the playbook. It's a sure bet that if Trek 2009 hadn't been the critical and box office smash success that it was, that Star Trek would have been completely dead in the water for at least another decade or more.

I raise this point because ENT absolutely was responsible for putting Trek on life support. The 2009 film was a make-or-break-it endeavour and fortunately it resuscitated the franchise.

If ENT put Trek on “life support”, it’s because of assholes who feel like if they just go to twitter, the writers will write something just for me!!

All they had to do was show the Romulan war and the founding of the Federation. It takes real talent to fuck that up

The Romulan War, as described in Balance of Terror, simply doesn't make much sense to me. It's hard to conceive of the notion where none of the Earth/proto-Federation forces would have any idea what a Romulan looked like during the war and for the 100 years afterwards. I suppose it could have been all drones in use on the Romulan side. Even so, I can't imagine that the Earth/proto-Federation side would not try to find out more about who the Romulans were, where they came from, etc.

Enterprise cancelled: May 13, 2005.

Twitter invented: March 21, 2006.

Jenee pwned: January 8, 2024.

It was probably a "you've seen my face, so now you must die" sort of thing.
Humans probably did lay eyes on Romulans, but they never told the tale.
Romulan infiltration of the Vulcan high council was a pretty big deal that needed covering up.
100 years later, statute of limitations was up.

You didn't factor in the Temporal Cold War!

I want Discovery to reveal David Cronenberg is Future Guy.

(As Cronenberg mocking Future Guy's cadences)
"Yoouu must bewaaare the Xeeeendeee!!!".

For it to be true, the Romulans would have not only had to have killed any humans who had a chance to see their faces, they would have had to either won or destructed any of their ships so that Romulan remains could not have been salvaged, they would have had to either kept their identities a secret from any other races outside of humans/the proto-Federation so that they could not have learned of them through third-parties, they would have had to prevented the use of both spy satellites and individual spies....

It's a premise that just doesn't work IMO over the course of a hundred year time frame. You just can't tell me that humans etc. would not have just gone shrug-emoji if they faced an adversary as powerful and secretive as the Romulans were over that period of time.

1. TOS Romulans had those helmets that covered the ears.
2. Cardassians have that pill that turns you to dust. Romulans could have had similar.

For Jenee to b pwned, she would have had to care.

The point is, asshole whiney babies have ruined entertainment because everyone wants stories tailored to them without having to make the creative effort to create the story themselves.

The Romulans in TNG weren't seen for sixty years prior to "The Neutral Zone" and they are notoriously xenophobic and have proto-cloaking technology so I think it would be possible that Romulus' location would be unknown to most species and the ENT era Vulcans might not share any information they might have with Starfleet.

It doesn't mesh well with how humans in the real world or in Trek act that they would engage in a shooting war with a political power that is relatively nearby and let 100 years go by without conducting enough research into them to even know what they look like. Even accepting that Romulans are secretive and deliberately took lots of steps to keep their appearance a secret and that Vulcans either didn't know or knew and concealed the truth about Romulans being a Vulcan offshoot, I can't see humans not wanting to know more about this race that they went to war with. The very fact that they went out of their way to be secretive suggests that humans would be all the more curious about why, and clues to the Vulcan/Romulan resemblance would presumably be found over the course of 100 years.

It's better to say people were fatigued with Berman and to a lesser extent Braga (who has been forgiven by fandom at large, from what I gather....maybe it's goodwill from Orville fans for that) than Trek in general.

This I do agree with. They spent too much time putzing around being TNG 3.0 (you know, back when the fan base actually wanted to move past their childhood security blankets) and by the time it became the prequel to TOS it should've been all along, it was too late.

I don't think it ever would've had numbers to get it to transfer over to the CW in the merger but it absolutely could have gotten a fifth season and been bettered remembered if they'd tried even a little bit harder.

I could be wrong, but didn't we spend years bullying Lt Mewa for being a VOY fan? And didn't @Kyle also dedicate an entire thread roasting the show that was, and I quote verbatim, "arguably, the weakest of the contemporary Trek series (a fate narrowly missed by Enterprise, saved mostly by the series actually acting like a prequel every once [in] a while)"? And that was from a thread started in '09 and completed two years before Discovery aired.

Perhaps TrekBBS doesn't represent all of Trek fandom but it was a pretty popular opinion to say that VOY at least started the decline in Trek. One could definitely make the case that VOY was a reason existing fans didn't tune into ENT (although that show did enough to kill fan goodwill on its own, I'll grant).

Prior to VOY finding an audience from the Kate Mulgrew stans from OItNB on Netflix, the only people I ever saw defending the show were kids my own age who missed the boat on TNG for whatever reason. I've come across to not bashing it at every opportunity but we have actual proof right here from Wordforge that this show was not well lived until another show came around that people could hate more. And you can bet your ass the day Starfleet Academy has its first plotline ripped from Beverly Hills: 90210 is the day Discovery bashers will accept it as "real Trek".

I don't know that the fan base ever wanted to move past its childhood security blankets. They were just upset that ENT wasn't the right color blanket, or Downy wasn't used on it, or fill in the metaphor here.

I never bullied Mewa 'bout nothin'! But I don't remember him being particularly fanboyish about Voyager. Which doesn't mean that he wasn't...

Anyway, I would say VOY has at least somewhat of a footprint in pop culture in general and among Trekkers there are people who love it because of Janeway, 7, Holodoc, and among its seven seasons there are episodes I think even haters would agree would have a place among the best 50 episodes of all of Trek. I'm not sure if Archer/Trip/T'Pol are known in the public at large at all, and I wonder if any Enterprise episodes would make it.

Variety put together a list that includes all Treks to present, and it has two episodes from ENT in its top 57: Similitude and Terra Prime. It has seven from Voyager: Blink of an Eye; Counterpoint; Equinox; Living Witness; Tinker, Tenor, Doctor, Spy; Year of Hell; and Timeless. (And yes, a list that includes The Way to Eden among the top 57 episodes of Trek might be sketch, but overall I'd say it's pretty legit.)

I think that there's probably not going to be a warm-and-fuzzy glow of people liking Discovery because there's something new to have a Two-Minute-Hate about. But you can always prove me wrong when that series gets off the ground.

Yeah, you're probably right, but I do remember a very common complaint from naysayers how safe ENT played it and how half the early seasons scripts were warmed over TNG stories that VOY passed on ad anyone who dare suggest we treat Bermaga as human beings doing a job and we weren't entitled to Trek Our Way™ got bullied. I should know, I bullied them.

FWIW, I've ran into more new-to-Trek ENT fans in the wild than ones introduced by DS9. Of the latter, both were Black and speaks to how difficult good representation was to come by that they followed the horrid syndication schedule to keep up with the show.

I'm even more surprised by those Variety picks. Terra Prime I guess belongs there but I would've thought season 3's Damage or Congenitor would've made the list before either of those two.

I fully intend to bump this when that show comes out

If anyone can say with a straight face that they saw ENT getting praise and bemoaning of it's run cut short in the huge numbers you have now from fandom prior to 2018, I'll eat my hat.

Marso is a regular contributor to the ENT forum now, and I am positive he was a full on basher when I registered here in '05.

If I want to watch Voy, I'll put on nuBSG.
Although, honestly, Voy had a very good premise, and a remake could do it justice. But I'd do it as an animated remake and have the original actors reprise their roles. Hit all the major plot points, keep track of the torpedoes and shuttle craft, tighten up dialogue, actually play up the interpersonal drama (esp with the Maquis crew), and field promote Harry Kim once or twice.

We have animated Voyager; it's Prodigy.

IMO (if the subsequent discussions are at least mostly honest) what damaged Enterprise was the suits. The TCW was imposed upon them (at least the require much of some sort of mcguffin) and the Xindi season was a similar effort to "do something"

I tend to think B&B would have ultimately just made a sort of boring Voyager-type thing, not something great (those two don't have DS9 in them and never did) but at least that middling product would have those two big tumors growing on it.

The Xindi season was Trek trying to tell a story to meet the fan base where it was in the 2000s in its post 9/11 anxiety. Hindsight is 20/20 on that and there should've been more scrutiny of Archer's actions, lack of a Prime Directive be damned, but for my money, I've re-watched that season more than I have season 4.

But inventing the Xindi for this purpose instead of weaving the Romulans in was a baffling choice.

I always wanted followup on what became of that alien crew Archer stole the warp coil from.
If it were me writing it, I'd either have...

1. SNW finds out they did finally find advanced aliens who towed them home, but not before they ran out of food, and had to Donner Party each other.
The survivors came home fucked up, and humans are remembered as sons of bitches; so now Pike has an uphill climb with them.
Maybe the tow truck aliens put them in eternal crushing debt somehow, and Pike has to fix it.

2. The Cerritos stumbles across the ship full of dusty skeletons, and torpedos it to space dust, and flies off going "".

From what I've heard thelat species was confirmed to be the Illyrians, but I absolutely wanted this in Season 4 and we got none of it.