Israel is Coming Apart at the Seams, It Seems

Wait, is "From the River to the Sea" okay now?

“From the river to the sea”: Netanyahu says he rejected Biden's call for Palestinian state after war

Source: https://www.salon.com/2024/01/18/fr...biden-he-opposes-any-palestinian-state-after/

So when an oppressed people proclaim "from the river to the sea" as a call to freedom, that's genocide.

When the oppressor who has murdered thousands of innocent Palestinians says that Israel will have control "from the river to the sea," that's okay?

Fascinating. It's almost like colonizers are afraid the oppressed will rise up and do to them what they have done to the oppressed, and so they steal the language of the oppressed to protect their own interests.

That feels like a stretch. Since Meta still blocks news in Canada, this is pretty much the only place I talk about the conflict. But even then, what is there to say at this point unless you're regurgitating the endless "Israel is the evil, Palestinians are pathetic victims that did absolutely nothing to deserve this" narrative like Rick and Amaris?

I think it's the UN's responsibility to permanently re-home the Palestinians and explain to them that they're not wiping Israel off the map anytime soon. Instead the UN seems to be working to encourage their endless yet futile campaigns of violence against Israel, and that's not cool.

If the Parti Quebecois spent decades launching terrorist attacks against the USA and the rest of Canada as part of their dream of making all of North America french, I doubt we'd be anywhere near as patient with Quebec as Israel has been with Gaza.

How awful! Hospitals are supposed to be out of bounds! And I know Hamas would never use them, so Israel is totally in the wrong here.

Oh. Looks like Gaza hospitals aren't out of bounds, thanks to the actions of Hamas, the entity that governs Gaza.

First off, Israeli's aren't colonizers. You're a colonizer, posting this nonsense from stolen land that you seem to have no intention of surrendering. Stop projecting.

Second, "the oppressed will rise up?" Is that how you refer to the murder of 1200 people, the kidnapping of hundreds more, and all manner of rapes and decapitations and torture, as "the oppressed rising up?"

na, i'm pretty much of the "this has been going on for so long it no longer matters who started the latest round" camp.

I'm not sure if the Palestinians require rehoming under the Balfour Declaration. What little understanding I have of that document is that they were entitled to stay in the home they had. carving yet another ethnostate out just to displace them seems a little too ironic.

That whole argument is just to get people on a side. I am just on the end it side. As much as I would like to see the Palestinians survive, I do not think that is what is within this present world to do. Isreal is taking the land, and Isreal has no regard for their lives because Isreal is controlled by greedy nasty people. I am not even going to say that is zionism. Zionism is just the flag the present greedy warmongering asshats in the situation are using. I also agree that the horrible greedy warmongering Islamic asshats would try to war with Isreal if they thought they could get somewhere.

Who did what first is irrelevant to these people. They just want everyone to join their side. I think they should all secure their borders and leave each other alone, but that simply is not what happens in the middle east. It is really just a shame on all sides as they all destroy that historic and spiritual land.

I have been tired of support for isreal from the US since I learned about what they were doing to Palestinians back around 2000. That was about the time I was really aware of the middle east troubles because of 9/11 and had the internet available to find out things from beyongh the american media propaganda that whitewashes Isreal.

I do not like the way the media pitches love for Isreal as love for jews. If you are a jew and going to Isreal now, you are going to fight a holy war IMO. It is all a holy war of bullshit around there. I would like the people to be free of it, but I do not want to be involved in it. The US should not have any allies in a holy war. We have no business endorsing any religious regime. It is akin to endorsing a religion. When there becomes a conflict about who is the rightful ruler of a religious regime you have no one to back or support your alliance with the government that is established by god.

At least if you had a true people's government you could deal with the people's government.

I think it is the fight they both want, and we need to get the fuck out of the way, and that includes in defending Isreal in any way. If Isreal wants us to step in on their behalf then it is by our rules. We pull the strings, and Isreal shuts the fuck up and does what is needed to lower tensions with US or world military protections for their people. If they don't like that then good luck. Same offer goes to the other side.

I was there for a while, but October 7th changed that.

Oh, I just think the Palestinians require rehoming because it seems like enough of them are committed to this conflict to the point that's is become the slow motion international equivalent of "suicide by cop," and moving them en masse somewhere else seems kinder than letting them wipe themselves out that way.


And I'm not trying to be a dick about it, but honestly... what happens when two sides go to war, and one side is constantly getting their asses kicked while refusing to surrender no matter how badly they're beaten? In the absence of a peace treaty or a ceasefire because the losing side refuses to stop attacking, when's the winning side supposed to stand down? I feel like historically, the losing side that refuses to surrender gets completely wiped out, and that was something they consciously chose.

For not trying to be a dick you are killing it. Hitler is applauding you. Do not let him have all the fun, you be that guy who can out racist him in your local arena.

Kitler agrees.

This statement is impeccably timed to coincide with the attacks on Nasser Hospital. It's made by someone who was previously forbidden to speak to the media, until after a couple of months in contact with Israeli military-intelligence. It's not supported by any other testimony. And such things are denied by international bodies operating in Gaza.

Even if it is true (yes, Hamas are cunts and they could be doing this) it does not in fact remove all protections enjoyed by hospitals under the Geneva Conventions. Israel is still in breach, both here and more generally via its dismantling of virtually the entire healthcare apparatus of the Gaza Strip.

And of course, let's not pretend that you care either way since you are unable to refer to a single crime that you think they should avoid - including inducement of mass starvation. You openly advocate ethnic cleansing. The only problem that you have expressed is that you think that these things ought to be seen as legitimate acts of war.

There's an interesting history here, but I'm not sure that the Balfour Declaration is still relevant. It certainly didn't advocate rehoming anyone.
It was made by a British government which sought to placate both Arab and Jewish opinion in the context of the first world war and it was decidedly vague. Of course it pissed off the Arabs who were at the time 90% of the population of what is now Israel-Palestine. (That's still at over 50% incidentally.)
It is astonishing how many of the worlds trouble spots have their roots in decisions made by the British around this time.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news...ffocated/0000018d-17f5-dd75-addd-f7f5e2e10000

Not even sure where to start with this one. The mother of a hostage killed in Gaza is accusing the IDF of killing him by using poison gas inside the tunnels he was being held in.

The western media are again silent about this (not a peep - try and find it) but it's being covered in Israel.

No, and you've been corrected on this before. You can't use a hospital for purposes other than medical treatment and still have that hospital protected under the Geneva conventions.

You should fucking READ them sometimes, don't you think?

Article 18

States which are Parties to a conflict shall provide all civilian hospitals with certificates showing that they are civilian hospitals and that the buildings which they occupy are not used for any purpose which would deprive these hospitals of protection in accordance with Article 19.

Article 19
The protection to which civilian hospitals are entitled shall not cease unless they are used to commit, outside their humanitarian duties, acts harmful to the enemy. Protection may, however, cease only after due warning has been given, naming, in all appropriate cases, a reasonable time limit, and after such warning has remained unheeded.

The fact that sick or wounded members of the armed forces are nursed in these hospitals, or the presence of small arms and ammunition taken from such combatants which have not yet been handed to the proper service, shall not be considered to be acts harmful to the enemy.

Using Hospitals to hold civilian hostages against their will is definitely not protected under the Geneva Conventions.

BTW, this is why no one believes you aren't pro-Hamas. No reasonable person would be looking at the PR of this as opposed to the morality of it. Hamas is a terrorist state, and they act like it.

I have read them, and I've read about them. Your interpretation is false.

"Acts harmful to the enemy" is the salient phrase. There is a discussion of that in general here and while it isn't fully defined in law, it is generally taken to mean actions that assist in things like combat, with a very high bar to be met before protections are removed. The holding of hostages by itself is not sufficient to meet that bar - according to the ICRC.

In addition, loss of protection can only follow warnings, a time limit to desist the relevant activities and warnings remaining unheeded. There is no evidence of those steps having been followed by the IDF in Gaza, in any of their attacks on hospitals. Instead, they are simply demanding evacuation and even when they have made claims of Hamas activity (such as at Shifa hosiptal) the evidence they've offered in support has been beneath contempt. In this specific case, the presence of hostages 2 months ago is an ex post facto justification being made by you, not a serious legal one, and not even one that they've offered.

Finally, rules of proportionality still apply, and I think it's crystal clear where Israel is on that point.

This is why just about every human rights group in the world has condemned the attacks. If you wish to ignore all of them and to accept "trust me bro" assurances from the IDF, then conclusions can be drawn from that.

You can speak for yourself if you like, but you are not entitled to declare what "no one" believes.
I have not defended the morality of Hamas holding hostages in a hospital, or holding them anywhere at all. They should all be released immediately. I specifically called Hamas "cunts" in the post that you quoted and I would not be surprised if this did turn out to be true.

But this is the same old story - you and others believe that the actions of Hamas justify removing all moral restraints from Israeli actions. I don't agree. Prohibitions against war crimes are binding on all parties at all times. The destruction of healthcare for 2 million people is an act of genocide and there is no preceding act that mitigates that fact.

12,000 dead Palestinian children is not a worthwhile compromise for anything. I just feel that needs to be said. I don't understand people who can balance that like some kind of Madeleine Albright situation where 500,000 dead Iraqi children was worth the price of our latest campaign. To me that's monstrous, it's inexcusable, sociopathic. Anyone who says 12,000 children dead is acceptable under any circumstance has completely lost me, and I cannot fathom a world where such a statement should be met with anything other than anger, rejection, and righteous indignation.

That there are whole pages devoted to justifying it is just obscene, IMO.

So, stage your attacks using children as shields. It's never acceptable to shoot back. Success!

Unless those children die as part of a glorious communist revolution, then you're happy to look the other way to stick it to the man.

I don't see a single mention of Hospitals holding hostages by force for terrorist groups as being aproved behavior. The fact that Hamas routinely uses hospitals toward terroristic ends is the problem.

I DO see hostage taking under the Fourth Protocol of the Geneva Conventions being called a 'grave breach' of international law, a war crime, and it demands that all hostages be immediately released. But I guess grave breaches of international law and war crimes aren't enough for you to say that it violates Section 19 - when Hamas is doing it.

If the hospitals can't say no to the terrorist government that runs them then how can they possibly be protected under the Convention which says explicitly that it can't be used for harm?

We also know that ambulances were used to move terrorist militants who weren't injured or sick as military transport.

Hamas really should have thought through their evil plans.

But hey, they were counting on people like you. Fortunately you can't do a single thing about it other than post uselessly on an internet board.

We've been discussing the warnings given to hospitals over their behavior for literally months now. Stop lying.

And again, per the hostage, dozens of them were kept there for months.

This is from the hostage herself - and her husband is still being kept. Maybe the international community should be telling Hamas to stop using hospitals to commit grave breeches of international law and war crimes.

Oh, right, you've already inferred she must be lying. Based on 'I don't want that to be true' line of thinking.

But again, the first thing you did was suggest that it wasn't true - you said it was just really convenient that's happening now. As if Israel's actions couldn't have been informed by their knowledge of this truth.

Do you have any evidence at all that this woman is lying? If so, you've yet to present it. No, it's not convenient, it was damn inconvenient for her to have to worry about her two three year olds being held by terrorists for months in a hospital, and she's terrified that she'll never see her husband who has not yet been released.

It is the same old story. You hold Israel to standards you don't hold Hamas to. And once again, maybe Hamas should have not infiltrated and transformed the medical infrastructure of Gaza in its war plans. They literally stated that taking hostages was the intent of 10/7. Last time they did that they reaped a huge reward. This time they went too far.

If Hamas would free the hostages and lay down their arms, all of this would end. But they won't do that. So Israel should fight with one hand tied behind it's back?

This is just as ridiculous as stating that Israel is responsible for providing water to Hamas - when Hamas riped up their water infrastructure pipes in order to make missiles to shoot at Israel.

From 2000 there's been 8800 missiles launched at Israel, and 5500 artillery attacks.

Palestine is getting exactly what it deserves.

If you're referring to people that actually post here, that's a lie and you know it's a lie.

You’re kidding. Right?

That's genuinely hilarious coming from you.

All the hospitals are gone, too BTW.

Guess all 36 hospitals has Hamas terrorists in the. What are the odds?











(That's sarcasm, in case it's not obvious)

In a territory where Hamas is the government and runs the ministry of health? No, you're right, that's absurd. Hamas would never.

If someone said it on Twitter then it must be true!

More info on the university they destroyed has emerged. They'd occupied the building for months and used it as a barracks. Then because they were leaving they decided to steal all of the antiques it held (there was a museum too) and blow it up, with the stated reason that doing do would "deny cover" to Hamas. It's one of 390 educational institutions destroyed.

Imagine the reaction if this was the Taliban.

So they know from firsthand experience it's a valuable building for a military force to occupy. Blowing it up makes sense in the middle of an urban military campaign then, doesn't it? No one wants a Stalingrad situation.

Wouldn't you be be madder if they'd blown up the antiques with the building? Nah, you were always going to condemn whatever the IDF did.

See above. Sounds like they know it's good cover because they were using it that way.

Hopefully the Gazans will learn something about how destructive and pointless and bad wars are and stop supporting terrorist groups that enjoy starting them.

You'd still be blaming Israel and America somehow.

This will be the last I'll say on this for a while. People can't be taught empathy, and they can't be taught that 12,000 dead children is a travesty.
Israel is committing a genocide, the US is helping fund it, and other western nations are running cover for it. It is a failure of humanity, and I can only hope, if nothing else, that the people excusing it today are seen the same as the Nazi apologists we see in our own history books. There are certainly people I'll never see the same way again, because the question to "if the holocaust were taking place today, what would you do?" has been answered for me. God protect these precious babies, and every other innocent in Gaza against the people who claim to be the most moral army in the world, because too few others seem to have the ability to give a damn.

UN: Palestinians are dying in hospitals as estimated 60,000 wounded overwhelm remaining doctors

Source: https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...n=TrueAnthem&utm_medium=AP&utm_source=Twitter

Wow, I was sure I just was told that they don't have any hospitals. Hmmm.

And once again, you shouldn't spend 75 years trying to genocide a group of people and lose all your wars. It goes very badly for you.

And it should.

You didn't read the article. The hospitals are described as "partially functioning". Elsewhere I've seen them described as operating more like hospices at this point. There are no fully functioning ones remaining. (They have no anaesthetic for one thing, as Israel won't let any in.) Except maybe the Jordanian field hospital, which Israel has also attacked in the last few days.

The doctors and nurses are still behaving heroically, despite all those mangled kids with limbs blown off or having heart attacks due to stress getting "exactly what they deserve".

The Iranian news agency said on Saturday that the head of the Revolutionary Guard's Quds force's intelligence chief and his deputy were among the fatalities in an Israeli strike on Damascus earlier in the day. Syrian state media on Saturday said a four story residential building in the Mazzeh neighborhood of Damascus came under an Israeli attack, killing at least three people.

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/syea11wft6

No, pretty sure you said that healthcare in Palestine was destroyed, and Shirogayne said all the hospitals were gone.

Good to find out once again you are liars.

The thing you have to remember about Middle Eastern leaders is that they love to say one thing in public and then the exact opposite in private.

Not just the Muslim ones, either.


Netanyahu told Biden in private phone call he was not foreclosing the possibility of a Palestinian state in any form | CNN Politics