Reactionary Radical Eliminationists vs. Trans

There are some female athletes who would like a word about "taking women's spaces."

When you're finished there, you can go ask around women's shelters, see how they feel about it.

Debunked: Misleading NYT Anti-Trans Article By Pamela Paul Relies On Pseudoscience
The opinion piece by Pamela Paul relies on routinely debunked disinformation and gets factual information wrong about transgender care. It is the latest NYT published piece to do so.

Source: https://www.erininthemorning.com/p/...rans?r=4dphw&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

I meant that you were the one being gaslit by being accused of mansplaining.
My only criticism was that trans women likewise face a huge rate of violence (often sexual or domestic, i.e.: gendered) and know enough of that same fear to be on the same paint card.

Shelter worker here- We've got a mix of 300 of the traditional unhoused types and refugees in six open dorms on three floors.

all guys in the basement, all couples on the first floor, gender segregated on the second.

city policy is you get placed with the gender you identify as.

AFAIK, this applies to all shelter types.

The rest of the time when I work in supportive housing, same policy.

Cool. But, the post I made at that time was not to say trans women AND trans men face fear, it’s different. Not that one fear is worse than the other, just different.

Let me try this. Remember when Obi Wan saw the clone begging on Daiyu. He didn’t show it, but you just knew for a split second a fear ran from his head to his toes a bone deep fear that others who had lived at that time and had heard about order 66 and feared the clones, could not possibly understand that fear that Obi Wan must have felt.

It’s like that for women. We don’t show it. Most don’t even recognize it any more. But, just because you understand a fear doesn’t mean you know that fear.

And likewise, most cis could not ever understand certain fears trans people experience.

But, sure. Tell me, again, Nova, that the above paragraph is mansplaining to you.

Yes, it's exactly like Star Wars

Cool, that's a reasonable opinion.

Just so long as you're also aware as a parent that if their "shortsightedness" persists beyond 18 and their transition is then much harder because you made them go through puberty your relationship with them may be shot.

Finally you understand the non aggression principle and that people are responsible for their own actions.

? I have no idea to what you're referring.

* *
Tererune: "So CPS is removing a child from the custody of parents who are abusing them for their sick twisted pleasure."

I believe it's a little more complicated than that. I was reading about that case the other day and the child has some really bad psychological issues due to abandonment (and then occasional reappearance) by her bio-mom in her life. That needs to be sorted first.

Secondly, she is fourteen, and a fourteen-year-old can't even get a fucking aspirin at school without parental permission, but she can be snatched from parents and other adults can began to transition her (including possible breast removal surgery if she is indeed in Wyoming with permits this) WITHOUT her parents consenting?

This is NAZI shit. She's a minor. When she's 18, she can do what the hell she pleases, but it's absolutely terrible to have parental rights stripped away on the dubious desires of a mentally-ill (not the trans bit, but other issues) teenager. Just appalling.

As a parent, I find this to be child abuse.

On that issue, perhaps. I'm hard-core conservative when it comes to illegal immigration. A bus, boat or plane ticket home. I hate line jumpers.

I'd be OK with seasonal workers, but fuck this "OK, you snuck in. We'll legalize you." No. Come in the right way or get booted out. Not fair to us, not fair to others who came the proper way.

So a bit of A and a bit of B.

I'm following you so far, and while I'm of the opinion the entire immigration process needs to be overhauled and less byzantine in nature, on the face of it I don't have a problem. However, I'm curious on your stance on refugees and asylum seekers, which have international laws at play, and are groups of people I can see being accused of being line jumpers.

Thank you. I find replying to reptation of well-worn tropes increasingly tedious and tiresome.

It's true that most average people barely have any opinion either way about trans people until they know one (or love one) - the Zealots are a very limited and very online fring.

BUT, the truly tiresome is the ones that learn just a handful of basic tropes, don't think through the implications or examine the credibility but rather just find that they confirm and comfort them in their latent biases so they wallow in them.

so you hear the tropes over and over and over ad infinitum. It's exhausting.

It's basically impossible to "come the right way" and every Republican proposal would make even that harder.

Also? Y'all need to piss off to a different thread with these other issues. This thread isn't for your general discussion of how conservative you are or are not.

She should just cut to the pink triangles or something and save everyone's time.

Except it hasn't.

Reasonable hypothesis.
Tested.
Failed.

Revise.

You need better sources.

I am sorry to tell you, but yes it will. That is inevitable. As the stigma on trans people drops, and the hole becomes visible the predaters will use it. It is not a reason to not allow things to happen, but it is not something we should allow to happen either. As the opening grows predators will use it becauser that is what they do. To think they will not is to make the same stupid mistake the church does.

That is the world, and just because it has not happened yet does not mean the people who sneak around and do this will not use an opening. This is why the trans community needs the commitment to being trans to gain access to places like changing rooms. Even I am not up for some twat who is gender queer deciding this friday they are going to be going into the private women's area. The bathroom is one place I think is a different issue because women do not pee in open stalls. If you are, then shut the fucking door.

I have seen stories of people who should not be changuing their gender on their legal documents because they have no intention of going for the operation. If that is the case and the penis is not so annoying you can exist, then going to the ladies room is not a requirement for you either. If you can be ok with the penis, then you can piss in the mens room. For the people who cannot get that far and are struggling with dealing with their penis because they simply are in pain over doing it, then get them the operation, and also let them into the ladies area as they need it.

If we start letting flakes going into safe areas they will abuse it. This has nothing to do with trans people at all. Just like we should not be letting priests be alone with children has nothing to do with religion, but rather not leaving kids alone with adults who they have no business being alone with.

I am going to put it flat out for any trans woman in here.

If the answer to would you take a surgically created vagina over a dick is not yes, then you are not fully trans.

You need to be yourself as who you are, and I am all for that. However, there are legal thresholds where you need to conform to the societal standards to be so. One of those areas is having a vagina to be in female only places, and to be treated by law as a female. We cannot be putting a penis in places like a women's prison or in female only areas on public. The other way has problems too. Should we be putting a trans male who has done everything they can to transition, in male prison if they do something wrong?

Society needs to deal with what you have as genitals in certain areas like prisons and how the government deals with your gender in emergency situations or in shelters. No way am I comfortable with putting a pre-op trans person in a women's rape shelter. That is abuse of the rape victims.

We have to have fucking brains here. We have to recognize that we live in the world where we need some security for ourselves and others. We are not the only people in the world, and we especially need to recognize there are predators looking for access to women's only areas and we cannot let the ambiguity of some waffling twat be the reason for a hole. Make the choice to be, or make another choice.

I respectfully disagree. To me, this would like kowtowing to the mob.

Just because it's always been that way (it hasn't) doesn't mean it should stay that way, or that such a way is the best way to approach things. I'm not willing to let the people who are ignorant and afraid of me get control of my life or how I present myself. There are superior options, and the only reason we're seeing things play out like they are now is because the people who want to remove the gains we've made are the people framing the question as it is. This isn't about trans people at all, it's about old, rich, white men maintaining the power over women, and over property, that they've held for generations.

They don't own my body, whether it presents as male, female, or non-binary. So they don't get to make the laws governing how others interact with it. We should get to make those laws together, when people are clear eyed and freed from the propaganda these old white fucks have been pushing for far, far too long.

I do feel like since we live in a world where your recognized gender grants you access to certain places and opportunities denied to the other gender, there should be some sort of standard in place before we grant that recognition to adults not originally recognized by the gender they currently identify as. Last time I was there OKCupid was full of fat hairy cis guys with dyed hair calling themselves "genderfluid" and claiming to be "pansexual" while only being interested in dating people that look traditionally female. That's fine for some shitty hipster dating website, but in the real world there should be a higher standard.

-"We should get to make these laws together" is already a thing, but since most of us are busy with jobs "we" elect other people to make those laws for us. (Those of us that bother to vote, of course.)

-Do you realize you're also white? You've been complaining about white people for a while now, as if you're not one of them.

-No one "owns" your body, and if all you did was use it to buy bagels, no one would give a shit. But if you want to access female-only spaces while presenting as a male, then your body and how you present it does become other peoples business.

We cannot just say because the mob says so we won't do it. There is a certain stopping point to our advancement. We don't just go beyond that because we are pushing against the mob. There has to be a procedure for legal changing gender. Yes, it has to be more than because a person says so. Where that is may be nuanced and progress along some stages, but it has not been defined.

I am good with making a starting definition of the process which can be adjusted over time as needed by the input of the medical community and agreement between trans and cis public concerns discussed with the goal of both sides existing and creating what boundaries are needed. Yes, that does mean people like UA and FF are tossed right the fuck out because they are not interested in actual discussion. I am not interested in telling decvent people our way or the highway because that is obnoxious and really they hold the better part of admissions into the community.

OK, settle down. I totally agree rich white abrahamic religious men are a huge problem. However, we want to join in the fight against the patriarchy, and not go it alone against them. That involves not acting like them and respecting other people's existence. Tough cookie to swallow is it is going to take time and steps to get there. One of the steps we do not want to make is harming the real victims of assault.

I have actually been there. Some of my rather stupid friends wanted to give me a safe night out as a girl back in the day, and we piled in the car for a nice trip to a gazebo on the hudson in the middle of the night for me and them to walk around and me be a girl. Unbeknownst to me one of the girls in the group had been molested by her father while dressing up in drag. This lead to her having an emotional breakdown because she was sitting in the car next to me for the 45 minute drive. That was not a pleasant coming out, and I had to have a long talk with my friends, and her, over the whole thing while trying not to make things worse. We were 45 minutes from home and this girl broke into a huge panic attack episode where we could not be in the car together. I believe she really had these symptoms, and even wanted to be supportive. It was a bad idea which came about because it was back in the day when it was hard to discuss certain things, including being the victim of such a horrible assault. I can tell you that you don't want that shit happening while you are trying to deal with the feelings of your first few times coming out in public. It is like being suddenly exposed naked and in pain, and it could send you into a panic attack. I am pretty fucking stable in the aspect of I can deal with high emotion in these cases. I am not normal in that way, and most people would freak the fuck out.

That is nice, but never going to be the case in our lifetime without some giant cataclysm. What we have is a world full of abused women on a scale we do not even want to look at. It is far worse than what is reported, and that does mean something. Barging into their safe spaces with the attitude of suck it up and deal is not the look I am going for. That is probably the look the predators want so they can laugh as we victimize women for them. Yes, that is exactly why they provoke us to do so. It is a win win for them, and we really need to be the ones to stop, because they are only going to come in afterwards and be the heroes to the women they want to abuse, and fuck us up with their support. People like @Uncle Albert and @Steal Your Face along with their overlords know this basic fact and love doing it.

They want us to do their dirty work for them. They want us to scare and violate women for them so they can siyt back and jerk off to it because hurt women turn them on. It does not matter who does it, and they love to swoop in afterwards and be the big hero knowing they will violate them again.

I will not set that shit up for them.

I am sorry to tell you, but yes it will. That is inevitable. As the stigma on trans people drops, and the hole becomes visible the predaters will use it. It is not a reason to not allow things to happen, but it is not something we should allow to happen either. As the opening grows predators will use it becauser that is what they do.

Again, it HASN'T. Not crossdressing and not any other ruse. Minneapolis passed a NDO in 1973 that allowed trans access to such spaces, the whole state of Minnesota in 1993. L.A. Public Schools enacted a policy in 2004, and many other jurisdictions in the mean time, and increasingly in the past 20 years such changes were well publicized.

The predicted predators failed to appear. Like, AT ALL.

The Family Research Council published a master list of over 100 cases they said proved your point. Something around 2018 IIRC. I went through the list case by case, most of them were not even events in segregated spaces - rather, some murder in prison comes out after conviction and that somehow proved something about bathrooms. Stuff like that. What was left when you stripped all that away was 8 cases between 2004 and 2017 in which ANY hint of a crossdressing disguise was involved. One of those was a dude who had panties pulled on over his kakis, one was a flasher who was on the sales floor and only fled into the restroom when security was in pursuit - but I gave them credit anyway.

BILLIONS of restroom visits in public multi-user sex-segregated spaces every year, and the implacable enemies of trans acceptance couldn't turn up even one instance on average per year.

Moreover, you almost never hear about such predators dressing up as janitors (a much easier costume to pull off) or security guards or any other such person who might be actually entitled to go in there. When you do hear about such attacks, there's no deception except to just try to be unobserved when they enter. Plant a camera, or wait and get physical, whatever but there's almost never any disguise.

Nevermind that over 80% of (reported) sexual violence cases are perpetrated by someone known and generally trusted by the victim.

This is largely because stranger attacks are almost entirely spontaneous heat-of-the-moment events. Even a stalker is effectively just waiting for the moment he thinks he can succeed. VERY VERY few are so twisted that they spend weeks planning their disguise, and choosing their location - in a PUBLIC space saturated by security cameras - to try and get away with being present when some strange woman pisses.

We have a massive data set that we can look at now. Hypothesis failed, and we/they CAN'T just go on forever saying "but it WILL! Wait and see!" any more than we can stand by while TERFs say "all these kids will detransition any day now, all we have to do is wait" while years roll by and...they don't.

"If the answer to would you take a surgically created vagina over a dick is not yes, then you are not fully trans."

This leans into the distinction between transsexual (where your assertion has qualified merit) and transgender. I made a sort of homemade graphic a decade or so back that is not precisely how I'd make it today but I still have it and I attach it below to illustrate my views.

I know that the word transsexual is out of favor in the community now but i think it has genuine utility in describing a subset of all the things that we/they collectively as transgender currently.

To wit, in the current parlance transgender is any lived state in which your manner of living is out of conformity to the accepted social binary structure. This is how they can include agender, bigender, gender fluid, and all those other things that are not specifically about genitals within the community (which has a political advantage of making the community larger and the ethical advantage of not trying to demark who is and isn't sufficiently trans to be included.

By contrast, one significant and at least historically more distinct are transsexuals who can/should be thought of as "changing teams." A person expected to be conventionally male who "converts" to a life conventionally female and wants their physical phenotype to reflect that - or the other way around.

BUT!

The reason I used the word "qualified" above is that for a huge variety of reasons altering the genitals is not practically available to all those transsexual people. We DARE NOT limit the definition to those who have accomplished the task because there are multiples more who would if they could but for some reason they cannot - reasons ranging from health counterindication to financial/logistical to things like maintaining a crucial relationship (if you have small children that you'll be cut off from if you have surgery - do you want the vagina more than you want to be in your kids life? Not everyone will say yes to that) prevents. So it becomes a sort of "magic wish" question rather than "will I do literally anything to make it happen.

So the people that you refer to as "fully trans" yes, include those who in a vacuum would elect the new plumbing without question - assuming "trans" means "transsexual" however, in the current parlance, one doesn't have to be transsexual to be somewhere under the broader transGENDER umbrella. And whatever me may think of the big umbrella, we have a lot bigger fish to fry then quibbling among ourselves over that distinction.

"If that is the case and the penis is not so annoying you can exist, then going to the ladies room is not a requirement for you either. If you can be ok with the penis, then you can piss in the mens room. For the people who cannot get that far and are struggling with dealing with their penis because they simply are in pain over doing it, then get them the operation, and also let them into the ladies area as they need it."

THIS is objectively dangerous. As much as I want deeply to repair my plumbing issue, for me to use the men's room would not only be incredibly dysphoric but dangerous in that it would out me to every potentially hostile bigot in line of sight.

Moreover, my economic/logistical hinderance to obtaining the desired modification in NO sense justifies submitting myself to the misery of not being seen as "real" - and instead being seen as inherently perverse - by everyone (potentially) who knows my status. My transition goal has always been to be effectively stealth to those who don't already know my past. I've conceded that status online because it is unethical for me to not speak up in the face of my people being oppressed. But, for example, in a week or so I'll go to Memphis in order to get my prescriptions refilled and blood work done and I will, as I always have, move through the world among strangers who know me neither from my life before or from the internet and THEY see me entirely as a (somewhat ugly) middle aged woman, neither threatening or perverse and THAT was the goal. To the extent I can and do modify my phenotype it is for my own personal satisfaction - and my own disappointment when blocked.

The theoretical presence of a penis is entirely irrelevant to every other person on this planet except me. Only one other person has laid eyes on it since I came out apart from medical providers. and, gods willing, that reality shall endure as long as I live. Should I, ya know, win the Powerball or something than even the theoretical will be past and your assertion will not be relevant in my case, but that will still put me in the distinct minority of transsexual person who both desire to, and accomplish, the trip across the bridge. Those who cannot are not obliged (except where republicans require it by law as the Governors of Iowa and Florida among others are working to make real) to put their lives at risk daily because that task remains undone.

Regardless of the law, I will in no instance ever be found in a men's room. I will potentially reduce my use of such facilities to 4 alarm emergency need, but when such arises I will not be found in a men's room.

@Nova I clearly did not properly express my mindset that bathrooms differ from changing areas or private female spaces like that. I did conflate the two in my discussion and was not clear as was in my mind.

I consider the public restroom issue different from a changing room in a gym, or things like shelters or jails. A public restroom is somewhere that a person should not be questioned as to their genitals in because we should not know if the bathroom is properly used. We should end this thing where if a person sees someone in the ladies room who they do not think is lady enough to be there they get to become genital inspector or call the police. That is a load of shit. If a person is acting wrong in a bathroom by intruding into stalls, filming, or threatening others then you call the cops. Otherwise I do not even care if a guy goies in the public ladies room stall and pisses. He should not be seeing anything anyway, and if you are showing off your shit in a restroom you are doing it wrong and fucking things up for all of us, or the restroom is fucked and needs to be fixed. I do not consider your privates guaranteed safe in a public restroom.

The next step is private changing rooms or places like a shelter or jail where you are going to be exposed to others in a genderized safe space. Here is where we need some legal definition to keep people safe. In some of these situations the presence of a trans person may already have broken the gender dysphoria barrier by the nature of the use of the space. Because of that intimacy, those areas need to have the ability to segregate based on the genitals they see because they are based on segregating by those genitals. You cannot put a person with a penis in a female rape shelter without mentally traumatizing the patients. I am sorry that is the fact, but we cannot expect people who have undergone sexual exploitation by abusive males to be ready to see a penis. They may be fine with it, but at that intimate moment we just have to give them that shelter.

Also, if you are forced into prison due to your own actions, and you have a penis, we are not going to be putting you in with the women. There should be accomodation in certain areas where pre-ops can go where they might not be exposed to those who would abuse them, but if you have the dick we are not putting you in with the women. Yes, if you have breasts we should not be tossing you in with the general rapists either.

There needs to be training with police so they are aware of how to properly react to the trans community. In the case of incarceration the police should need to be aware of one's trans status so they can maintain medications which are needed.

Then there is the discussion of how to deal with things in schools. That is an area where we might have a little girl with a penis because she cannot get the surgery until she stops growing. We do have to have ways of recognizing true trans people because kids can be the worst about doing stupid shit. That is not because of trans or anything other than they are kids and get stupid ideas and do not have mature emotional growth or experience. So there has to be some discussions of standards of how to proceed with these things properly. I am for things like puberty blockers which are safe temporary relief from the development of gender traits. However, I am not for giving kids the easy go ahead to start surgery. That is a temporary time where the choice can be explored and properly made for the child. Yes, that means children will be exposed to trans kids and the other gender's genitals in their gendered spaces. That is where we should be schooling them on the existence and reality of these things so they are prepared when they go out into the world to deal with people like this. Kids who are exposed to this without indoctrination into the fantasy land of religious gender bullshit are perfectly capable of understanding it, and we need to stop fucking them up with gender lies and fantasy from yaweh, christ, and allah.

quelle surprise...

no dismissive response to actual, first hand experience within the topic from uncle burger. Not even an insinuation that I'm lying or otherwise somehow padding my self esteem...

If only he'd similarly keep his yap shut on everything else he clearly has no knowledge of.

It would be cool if he did not pontificate on the only things he does know about like how to make the stank that @Jenee is so hooked on. UA is someone who is at his best the less we hear from him.

I keep waiting for "his semen is the color of tobacco spit, and smells like moldy potato, so his other stanks are dampened down by comparison" to be added to the mythology. But it never happens. It's like waiting for a dancing chicken to write Shakespeare.

Living in a Trans Body

Something of note in particular:

Full source: https://rejserin.medium.com/living-in-a-trans-body-b0bb5855a7d2

That's the core of it. So many of us who are trans didn't get to have the childhoods we deserved because our external biology dictated our experiences. Our bodies, as we got older, were traitorous. As I've aged, I've lost most of my hair. Now some people might say "there are bald women," and of course there are, but as a trans woman, I get to deal with the extra layer of being clockable. Wearing a wig? For a cis woman, that's normal and accepted social behavior, but for a trans woman, that's just more deception to the TERF crowd, who can offer no mercy or compassion because they've convinced themselves that ersatz women have come along to take their place.

No matter what I do, even once I can get on hormones, there are people who will always consider me a man in a dress. Why? Clearly I'm not doing it for sexual frivolity, as the hormone process is massively disruptive. It changes your thought patterns and biological instincts. Are these TERF cis women seriously trying to tell me everything that makes them special lies in the chemicals their bodies produce? That's why so many people who are trans and trans allies find the framing so weird, it's like cis women decided that the patriarchal system is the only way they can have some kind of value, when the truth is they are valid and valuable outside of that framework and don't need it. If anything, you're cutting yourself off at the knees by redefining womanhood. We're not the ones doing it, we're expanding it to its full potential, not limiting it so that the people who oppress us can give us a little treat of self-reinforcement every once in a while.

Just because something is socially acceptable does not necessarily translate into what defines a person. Hell, philosophers have been dealing with that question ever since we crawled from the muck. Some Republican in congress doesn't get to put a period on the question just because he's insecure about where his penis goes.

That's not even broaching the subject of transgender men, and non-binary people, who also make up the spectrum of what makes a human being who they are, but they are often ignored because our society has a specific value it has placed on women. The idea of "men" wanting to become women not being seen as a joke terrifies them, it angers them. For some it's an anger based on religious indoctrination, and for others it's just simple ignorance made manifest.

This is not a joyful journey for me. It's not some kind of lark where I think I'll just slip on into the women's bathroom and sexually assault women, because we all know that lesbians would never do that, and we know that gay men would absolutely never do it (trans men in the men's locker room). It is not our fault that there is a dedicated group of people who have to reduce everything down to who is fucking whom without permission from the people who consider themselves the authorities on the matter.

I have to hope that humanity will work themselves out of this latest bout of childishness, and I have to work towards pushing them to re-examine their beliefs in the process, but at the end of the day, it's still on them to do it and stop blaming their own insecurities on people just trying to live as they are.