Affirmative Action Doesn't Work, It Never Did...

Abolish the federal Department of Education and return all responsibility, authority, and funding to the states where it belongs. At the federal level there should be nothing more than an advisory board.

I'd agree with you in terms of obstructive bullshit like NCLB.

But given how "well" some states are doing even with oversight:

http://www.msubillings.edu/caer/quality_rankings_of_education_in.htm

one has to wonder how much further some of the 50 little fiefdoms would slide all on their own.

One of the major problems with American public education is that it is too democratic.

A common adage among teachers is that "10% of the students cause 90% of the problems".

Get rid of those 10% and the overall quality of your schools in EVERY way improves dramatically. Discipline, test scores, school spirit, everything gets better.

But it is horrendously difficult to actually kick out problem students from a public school. Basically the school board has to vote to do so for EACH & EVERY student expelled. Each and every student regardless of what they did is entitled to a hearing. Each and every student is entitled to an appeal. Most administrators just decide to briefly suspend them (two weeks at most) and allow them back in school.

Hell, there was a fight between students at the school I'm at the year before I got here where the Agri teacher broke his leg trying to break it up!! Did either of the students involved get expelled? No.

That's a recipe for the religious fundamentalists running amok in the red states and the teachers' unions running amok in the blue ones. Neither option is exactly a recipe for educational excellence.

You know what people call "religious fundamentalists" today was what was called "mainstream" back in the 1940s, 50s, and early 60s.

And public schools back then were supposedly quite good.

And.....?

What is the general/average work ethic of Finland and South Korea versus the US? Also, are not both of these countries homogenius for the most part?
In other words the vast majority of Finns or Koreans pretty much think and behave the same. As mentioned, school performance in Nerdville Iowa might be closer to Finnish/Korean performance than schools in Ghettotown New Jersey. America is such a huge melting pot that there's no way to compare us to a nation where 99 percent of the people think alike, or at least act alike.

I love it when people (often liberals) make the argument

"If Finland can make it work then why can't the United States"

It is like saying "That coach does a great job with the Pee Wee football program. Why don't the Steelers hire him as head coach?

"Supposedly" according to whom?

My parents started school in the early '60s. They describe lots of rote memorization, history classes that started with Columbus every year and managed to get as far as the Civil War before summer reset the clock and the exact same thing started all over again, and, come high school, teachers hired for their ability to coach football who did nothing but show movies.

memorization is important. But I understand the complaints about history.

And learning by watching movies and videos is underrated.

I've been told to have my students draw tableaux's in my history class. I haven't been able to find out exactly what a tableaux is (or even how it applies to teaching) and I've consulted with a dozen teachers on it.

I'm not sure the movies were actually about the subject supposedly being taught. I'm pretty sure my mother had a history teacher who just showed football films most of the time.

In any case, educational techniques and our understanding of how kids learn have come a LONG way since then.

Then your parents and I went to different schools. I had several coaches as teachers (Civics, Physical Science) and they were all excellent. I don't remember seeing a single football film. Now, we didn't see as many films back then because it was far harder to arrange them. Probably about once or twice a month.

But back then (1973-1985) seeing a film was a real treat no matter the class. I remember when my class watched Julius Caesar in English Lit. class and everyone at football practice talking about the cool assassination scenes and stuff like that.

Oh, the stories I could tell...

We'd never have the faintest idea. It'd change from moment, to moment, to moment, and every time it would be just ambiguous enough that you'd never, ever have to defend having been wrong. 'Cause that's what you do.

You get the point first, we'll negotiate from there.

Have we got one now? Is the Department of Education only just now getting in to the office?

Funny thing about the sky on Earth, it can change from moment to moment to moment. Your planet must be very, very sad.

Sunny, clear day -- 2 PM. What color will 100 people say the sky is most likely to be?

What color of sky was smiling at Irving Berlin?

What language are they speaking? How many are visually impaired? How many are color-blind? How many are physicists who'll lecture you on light refraction and how the sky really isn't any color at all?

This is how my mind works. Like time, it's not linear.

Celtic knots.

Were you hoping to prove that I'm wrong about what you'll do... by proceeding to do what I said you would?

How well do you expect that'll work out for ya?

1. Most definitely agree.

2. Most definitely agree. The more hands on experience the better. There is a reason I got no problem being a sustaining donor to 89.5 KNHC (Nathan Hale Communications), it's the only all student ran radio station to be a part of the billboard system. Aviation High at the Boeing Campus is another good one. I fully support all such endeavors.

The problem is that in reality companies or public school systems with lots of money to throw around at apprenticeship opportunities aren't the areas/systems that really need the most help. By the nature of how we fund our schools (local levies) the bad schools are generally in economically depressed neighborhoods.

So how to get the kids to the jobs? Or vice versa.

Or are we to just write off those kids b/c they weren't born in the right areas?

You seem to think I care what you think. You proceed from a false assumption. Poor little one-dimensional being.

Of course you care. You have nothing else going on.

Seems to work well in places like Norway, Sweden and Finland.

Pee Wee football teams...

Do they not have governments? John Castles assertion was that "No government" has ever done it.

Pee Wee football teams also have 11 players on the field at one time just like the pros.

That doesn't mean a great Pee Wee football coach could successfully coach the Pittsburgh Steelers.

Wonderful. When Norway, Sweden, or Finland is the size of the United States, we'll revisit the issue. How's it worked out for Cuba, Venezuela, or North Korea, by the way?

In terms of Cuba, by many metrics they are doing better than some Latin America countries that the US is very chummy with. Similar with Venezuala, and North Korea is less about an even playing field, and more about grinding the population into fertilizer for a field the elite can use to play on.

In terms of size of government, the US is the anomaly, most countries aren't your size but still have governments. The only thing I took exception to was your demonstrably incorrect blanket statement. Besides which, it seems that if the size of the population is what causes yet another apparent case of American Exceptionalism, does that mean it could work if conducted on a state level?

No, I've never been the binary type.