For what it's worth (single anecdote and all that) - this is basically the take from my Afghan brother.
Certainly I'd like to see a more responsible, cautious and mature US less inclined to casually leave trails of chaos and confusion across whole swathes of the rest of the world for no reason than to boost the current POTUS ratings. Walk softly and carry a big stick by all means, don't thrash it round like a chimpanzee having a seizure in a crowded room. The rest of us have to live here too.
According to the canadian @14thDoctor we are not allowed to criticize the US government and it use of the military and economics to destabilize and harm other countries around the world? Everything the US does is good and if you do not admit that you are an evil US hating person? I rest my case that he is as dumb as any Trumpanzee. The only difference now is that he does not support trump.
My wake up call on him was when he went rabid about how we all need to be assaulting Nazis or else we are all immoral and evil. There is a whole lot of anger at others for not committing violence on the people he hates, but he never does any himself.
The US went after places that we perceived had threats against us. The Taliban was put into power in large part due to Al Qaeda, and hosted them while they planned terrorist attacks on our soil. Iraq had already attempted to take over another country in the region, had attacked Saudi Arabia, and had attempted to assassinate a US president. While we were there, we tried to inculcate some of what we consider our more positive values, including democracy and women's rights. In one case overwhelming corruption meant that when we left after a generation of sending our soldiers there, the local government completely collapsed as their elected representatives looted and fled the country. In the other we still have a small presence because their government still wants us there - despite all your protestations to the contrary. No, we didn't go there to free their woman. Yes, it is something that hits many people in the US hard knowing that the women of Afghanistan are going to certainly be violently repressed again. It would be nice if that turns out to not be true, but you would have to be quite naive to believe it won't happen. Saying we have to spend countless decades there to prevent that is a ridiculous assumption, as that was what would have happened without our presence regardless. It already had. We spent billions, and allowed them to run their own government. That government was freely elected, inordinately corrupt, and absolutely craven. Iraq was a mistake, but ultimately after tremendous human suffering and death a representative government was formed that the people seemed willing to defend. That is not the case in Afghanistan, despite the international communiy's best efforts. And yes, it was more than just the US involved.
Yes, you live in one of the wealthiest and safest countries in the world with free healthcare and a democratically elected government. That government was also part of the attempt to establish an Afghan republic. And of course is the largest colonialist power in history. Don't lecture others about 'having to live there.' The blood trail coming from your government in both Afghanistan and Iraq far predates anything the US did.
Oh, and speaking of 'you have to stay there forever until they can stand on their own feet' crowd, how's Hong Kong doing these days? You know, after the Brits took over the island in the FIRST Opium War, with Opium Wars being so profitable and all there had to be a sequel. You check in on them recently? They doing OK? Certainly you wouldn't turn over a thriving democracy to an authoritarian power without significant guarantees of their continued free rights! I mean, if they did violently oppress the population there would be swift and inevitable reaction, certainly more than a strongly worded letter! What? All that happened so long ago? The handover was 3 years before the US backed the Northern Alliance to take back Afghanistan. The last free newspaper was shutdown two months ago, and its founder sent to a reeducation camp. Geopolitical realities are depressing sometimes, aren't they? What I don't recall is Americans savaging Brits over the reality that they were responsible, yet unable to effect a better outcome.
No one is denying that, the UK has ample blood on it's own hands. My comment, though, was a broader one than Afghanistan and me personally. The whims of the US electorate have a disproportionate impact on the entire world and that affects everyone. That such power is wielded so chaotically and indiscriminately is the point. It's like having a noisy neighbour trying to tell you they play their music loud at 3am because they know you like it really.
Oh look. Our official representative of military intelligence has gone back to defending the origins of the Iraq War, among other things.
It's quite possible to criticise the US not in spite of other history, but because of it and seeing the same lessons repeat themselves over and over throughout history.
Thank you. This is a point I've repeated endlessly but mocked for. We had the world's largest empire, we fucked up life for billions whilst we "civilised" the world. At some point an empire, any empire, (and yes I'd make the case the US is an empire) will hopefully start learning from the mistakes of it's predecessors.
Watching CBS News and CNN this morning I found it interesting they grudgingly reported thousands of people have already been safely evacuated. The traditional media should focus more on reporting the news than making the news. It reminds me of Bill Maher’s Quentin Tarantino interview a few weeks ago. It’s not enough to just be a film critic, now you have to say how you would have made the film differently and better. To Bill’s point you probably couldn’t.
I also tire of the sanctimonious twats. I don't like spending tons of resources on nation building either, but the hypocrites can fuck off.
Then stop invading people. The course of world history and in particular the Afghan people for the past two decades has been irreversibly shaped by the decision to invade Afghanistan in an attempt to get one guy who was neither Afghan nor in Afghanistan. If you didn't want responsibility for those people's welfare you should never have attacked them.
No one could have seen that coming. I mean intel was immaculate otherwise, absolutely worth the damage done.
The situation with evacuees is a complete mess, no matter what happens. Currently many who worked with the previous government and western forces are trying to or have left. However 20 years of occupation means that those with high value skills like doctors, engineers, architects, etc tend to be largely made up of those same people.
I just read that Biden is apparently determined to stick to his August 31st withdrawal date despite being warned that would mean leaving people behind. Infuriating.
It is a truthful statement about the problems of religious idiocracy. I hate to tell some of these people the US is just a tiny little step better in regards to intelligent professionals. Our christian Taliban is just a step below beheading doctors, scientists, and even regulated industry like architects in the street. Our christians our just killing a few less of them and they are actually trying to kill themselves off for COVID jesus. They are out there threatening the lives of educational workers at school board meetings. They seem to be up in portland shooting it out on the streets because the portland police are part of the american Taliban. A country with a radical religious insurgency trying to hang it's legislature for actually having an honest and fair election should not be telling anyone how to be. I hope any people coming over here as immigrants and refugees are prepared to be threatened and killed on the streets of the US for being Muslim. You can find some better situations as a Muslim in the US, but the american Taliban is hunting for you and waiting for you to be alone so they can terrorize and attack you. They are going to be wherever you work trying to get you fired because you are supposedly a child molester because muhammed. After you are killed all the law is going to do is excuse the cop or hardly boy because of self defense. I am not trying to say do not come, but I am saying do not ever feel you are safe and always watch your backs along with your family because the American Taliban is all over the place.
The Taliban are also insisting that everyone sticks to that date. Let's say you suddenly find yourself sitting in the oval office. How many forces do you send in to escort people to the airport and secure it, and how many military and civilian casualties are you willing to accept to do so?
If I'm sitting in the oval office I'm telling my generals I want to get everybody out that wants out, and I ask them to tell me what that's going to take and how many lives it might cost. Then when I get the numbers I do the math and decide if it's worth it, which I suspect it would be. https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/23/politics/taliban-death-threat-afghan-translator-letters/index.html The Taliban's promised amnesty is a lie, they've already stopped pretending. I'm pretty sure any civilians that might die if we attempt to rescue them now would likely be killed by the Taliban anyway, only later and without the media paying attention. Related: I care about what the Taliban "insists" about as much as I care about Ashli Babbit's Oscar picks. There's a reason they didn't attempt their coup until just now, and if it was up to me I'd be more than happy to remind them of that reason. At this point the only thing that might possibly keep them from behaving as monstrously as they want is the threat of America and NATO having enough and going back in, and acquiescing to their demands now only makes them more confident that that'll never happen. It's better for everyone if they've constantly got one eye on the West, hoping not to wake the sleeping giant as second time.
Hey fuckstick, I didn't attack anyone nor have I ever endorsed Afghanistan occupation. So unless you want to take responsibility for every bad thing your country has ever done, which makes you the ultimate hypocrite, you can kindly fuck off.
Three things about the U.S.: 1) We have great military hardware. 2) We have a fuckton of money, and can outfit our troops with whatever protective gear they need. 3) We may have trouble holding territory for the long haul against a ground-based insurgency, but we are really good at projecting massive amounts of force in the short run. All of this means that if we have the will to say to the Taliban "fuck you, we're getting these people out of the country and we're not going to let you stop us," we can do it.
When it comes to international forces the Taliban have done a surprising job of keeping close to the non-aggression terms laid out in the Doha agreement. It's no surprise the Taliban have moved in now, because it's mostly on the timeline that was agreed to 18 months ago. I agree the Taliban are awful, but it's also a fact that the only reason things have gone as relatively smoothly (in relation to international forces) as they have to this point is because they also saw that the US was sticking to the agreement. There's no clear path where the status quo could be extended. The choices at this point are withdrawal or a return to open conflict and a further undermining of any peace talks with anyone else in Afghanistan or elsewhere in the world. It's a shitty situation, but there's no easy solution here.
