An interesting argument that is, unfortunately, all to rare.

I'm not "judging God," I just find your concept of god to be irrelevant to me. You can believe whatever you wish, and clearly do.

I don't have a concept of God. I merely acknowledge the limits of logic and the inability of humans to understand the universe as a whole. Reality as we know it clearly cannot account for its own origin. I am then left to concede that something else was responsible for its creation. This is what we call "God."

Value judgements have nothing to do with it. Morality has nothing to do with it. Judging God has nothing to do with it. Killed is killed and not killed is not killed.

I know. You should read the second paragraph I wrote.

The second paragraph has nothing to do with the existential nature of dead.

You aren't nearly as clever as you think you are.

You are obsessed with a moot point. I don't know what to tell you.

Just because you went all non sequitur doesn't make it a moot point. It just makes you going all non sequitur.

Non sequitur to you, obvious to me...

Of course it's obvious. God is the unmoved mover. He is that which nothing greater can be imagined. And dead is dead. No judgement required.

If there was a point you were hoping I would realize, you lost me. Clearly, you would not continue to engage me unless you thought something I said was wrong and you wished to correct me.

Obviously.

That was an invitation to cut to the chase.

The chase has been cut to...multiple times. I'm disappointed, but not terribly surprised, that you aren't capable of figuring it out.

My loss. Oh well.

That is your concept of what you think "God" represents. If I came to the conclusion "therefore, Skittles," it would have the same weight outside of that opinion. In short, it's still only your notion. Nothing more.

So what would you call Abraham and Isaac? If a sacrifice, it's still a killing.
And a Mormon example, what would you call Nephi killing Laban, who does follow through?
Context: God tells Nephi and his brothers to get the brass plates from Laban in Jerusalem, so Nephi and his family have their genealogical records. Laban refuses to hear them out, and dismisses them.
They return with their riches to buy the plates, Laban takes the riches and throws them out. Nephi's brothers Laman and Lemuel beat the shit out of Nephi for this, an angel shows up and tells them to knock it off, and sends Nephi back out. Nephi finds Laban passed out, drunk. God then tells Nephi to behead Laban, take his clothes, and make off with the plates incognito. Some internal justification later, Laban's head is now a bowling ball.

I think you have it right (within the context of Traditional Christianity)

The thing is, I'm old enough to remember that the Pharisees have flipped pre-millinial dispensational theology on it's head. Back in the 70's, what that meant was that the world IS going to shit, nothing we can do to stop it all we can do is watch for the signs and be ready because it HAS to go to shit before Christ returns (per prophecy)

Now they realized the profit in convincing the sheep that Jesus can't come for the rapture until they "Christianize" the country (if not the world) because they are easier to manipulate that way. So they just basically erased all that (bullshit) that Lindsey and his peers were peddling and re-indocrtinated the gullible into a whole different vision. It's really quite remarkable as a study in human psychology.

I read a wonderful essay a while back and, apparently, didn't bookmark it as I should have. It described how the wealthy oligarchy has always deliberately set disgruntled poor and working class people against each other in order to divert them from focusing on those who were actually exploiting them.

This column touches on the idea but it's not as detailed or as broad as the one I'm thinking of.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/loca...ab6e38-0643-11e6-b283-e79d81c63c1b_story.html

Basically, YES those folks have reason to be disgruntled, particularly increasingly so over the last 35 years, they have just been utterly brainwashed about WHO they should be resenting.

Normal people would prefer you keep religious idiocy out of government.

None of that is being or ever was done (except in the same sort of cultural shaming that "your religion" has employed for the whole history of this nation in order to control other people's behavior - kinda sucks to be on the reciving end of your own bullshit tactics, doesn't it?)

But if you WANT to continue to be a Pharisee about it, no one is stopping you on a personal level - you just can't bring it into the marketplace*


*does not apply in Mississippi

In 1972 the SBC passed a resolution affirming the legality of abortion and recognizing several situations in which it would be appropriate. Except for the Catholics (well, can't say about the Mormons), that reflected the consensus of Christian thinking at the time.

no one forces them to participate, they are forced to treat all customers equally.

Take the baker - feels compelled to not make wedding cakes for same sex marriages? Okay, then don't make wedding cakes AT ALL. Problem solved. The law doesn't require all bakers to make wedding cakes, it requires them to treat their customers equally.

MANY people of faith refrain from a particular career, type of business, or service within their field due to conscientious objections. It's perfectly fine. These people simply need to make the same sort of choices.

Also, here's a hint - every single one of those folks who have found themselves in court over cases like this are nothing but stalking horses created by the political Pharisees to generate the outrage that keeps them in business. The were trained via right-wing "Christian" echo-chamber media that they were supposed to deny gays in order to create exactly the current cultural confrontation. A few of them followed through and boom - test cases.

In comes the ADF to say "we'll represent this poor oppressed Christian for free"
THEN
ADF sends out fundraising letters saying "look at this poor oppressed Christian! We need YOUR help to defend her! Please send your most generous gift today!!!"
In so doing, they raise far more money than they would ever be directly paid by the client or receive in a settlement.
THEN
Either they (rarely) win and they send out a letter saying "We won! Send more money so we can help others fight evil liberals!!"
OR
the lose (regularly) and say "evil liberal activist judges handed us a setback but we're gonna keep fighting with your generous support! Please send money today!!!"

It's ALL a scam my brother. All of it. I know, ask anyone here I used to be RIGHT where you are - maybe even more committed. But I was being played for a fool, just like you and millions of other mostly sincere believers are still.



Think about it - there's very solid New Testament support for the idea that the Bible forbids interfaith marriage. And yet, NOT ONCE has a complaint surfaced of an Evangelical Traditionalist refusing to serve a wedding between people of different faiths. Why do you suppose that is?

It's a very good summary.

Just wish more politically powerful Baptists felt the need to follow that guidance (Russel Moore does a much better job than the rest of them and he only looks really good by comparison)

so....there are a lot of posts (apparently) removed from this thread. Who were y'all arguing with?

I think you are trying to say "God" is a flimsy concept to believe in altogether. Of course, when measured against the alternative, namely, atheism, "God" is the only sensible option.

Of course, God is unknowable, right? Or is He?...

Of course it's a killing. But others here are implying that not only could such a killing amount to the sin of murder, but that God could be guilty of murder Himself. God only commits murder if He decides He has committed murder. That's within the domain of His power.

Such a killing can take place without it being a sin so long as either God commands it or carries out the killing Himself.

No, I'm saying believe in whatever deity or deities you wish, they don't exist for me, nor do I have to respect them. My issue only arises when those beliefs are used to harm others.

I am aware of your concerns and personal issues. You incorrectly assume I am insane the way @Dayton3 and @Sean the Puritan are. Your problem is with them and others like them, not with me. To me, they are no different than atheists.

Says a lot when God has a mortal do his dirty work when he could have done it himself or otherwise intervened without killing. If he saw fit to send an angel to keep Laman and Lemuel from beating the shit out of Nephi, he could have sent an angel to get Laban to part with the brass plates once Nephi did his due diligence.

Must be easy to know what's better when you have a mind equivalent to/greater than God.