^If anything, I'd say the opposite is true, at least anecdotally. I've worked with - and in the majority of cases I use that expression loosely - a total of 14 editors at six houses over the course of 25 years. They've ranged from interested hands-on editors whose suggestions made for a stronger product, to airheads and dipshits who gave no indication they had even read the manuscript. With one exception (Greg Cox, who used to be at Tor, but is now a full-time writer, and who single-handedly saved the Preternatural trilogy when his boss - one of the aforementioned dipshits - bobbled it), the good editors happened in the early years. The editor on my last non-Trek book told my agent (he'd stopped speaking to me about two years earlier) point-blank that he hadn't read the manuscript he'd bought and paid for. "I just handed it off to the proofreader. I didn't have time." Direct quote. One might ask what he was doing with his time. He "works" at home. Pulls down top salary for his line of work. Wife works, no kids, they've got household help, so it's not as if he's fixing school lunches or building a deck. Short of walking the dog and stopping by the 7-Eleven to pick up more Amstel Light...I dunno. Where the book business differs from film is that film has always been understood to be a collaborative medium. And script writers have a Writers Guild to kick ass for them and make sure they are paid exactly what the contact calls for, regardless of when they're taken off the project. Most veteran writers take the money and run. Creative control doesn't interest them. There are legions of script writers who exist solely on residuals for works that are optioned and never produced. The novelist has no union. (Oh, there's an Authors Guild. For $90 a year you get a membership card, a quarterly newsletter and, for an additional $6 a month, web hosting, and if a bunch of members file a class action suit - as some did for e-publishing rights a few years ago - they're in your corner. But they have no real clout the way WGA does.) What the novelist does have - except when writing media tie-in novels - is ownership of copyright. So there are clauses in the contract that say an editor can suggest rewrites, and rewrites of rewrites (third rewrites are not cost effective or time efficient for anyone, and at that point the editor, like a cat watching a spider, has usually lost interest and curled up for a nap), but the editor makes changes himself at his peril. It's my manuscript. Worst thing the editor can do is dump it back on me with a kill-fee (which is usually equivalent to the second half of the advance) and say "Sorry, not publishing this." Neither the editor nor the writer wants that (the writer might take the money and run, but selling the next book, after this editor has bad-mouthed the writer up and down Park Avenue South, ain't gonna be easy). So either they try to reach an accord, or the writer just holds out until the editor curls up for that nap, and the book goes to press.
How important is an agent to a new writer, or more specifically a writer in my position? Here's the situation - a fairly good friend of mine was at a wedding I attended last night, and it turns out that she now is an editor for Harper-Collins in NYC (fairly new at it, I think she's two years in). Basically she told me that after all of the conversations we've had about literature (we once worked at a bookstore together where we co-ran the creative writing group) she'd be willing to look over anything I wanted to send her, and if it was decent enough in her eyes she'd send it over to Eos. Now, I certainly don't want to put her in a bad position by handing her a crap manuscript, but this has taken quite a bit of anxiety out of the writing process (in fact I am actually incised to get home and do some writing tonight for once). I want to get it done and to her by this time next year. So, should I bother trying to get an agent once its finished, or is a good industry friend enough? Would a publisher actually prefer a new author to have an agent even if the book was recommended by another editor? (She doesn't work for Eos, just the same parent company). Are such "Hey my friend wrote this, you should read it" events common? I would almost (almost!) rather finish it and find my own agent than put her into a position where she might make a rookie-editor mistake. Thanks Of course, I'll probably post snippets here in the upcoming months, though I already have a few unbiased readers whom I trust once it is actually complete.
If you'll pardon my French, holy shit! I wonder if you have any idea how lucky you are... No, these "Hey, my friend wrote this..." moments are not common, unless you're, say, a celebrity's child or Tom Clancy's chauffeur. HarperCollins is one of the biggest and most prestigious publishers in Gotham City. You've just been bumped to the head of the line and given a golden opportunity, but you need to approach it carefully. How quickly can you put together three chapters and an outline? Yes, I know, that's the magic formula, but it will work here, too, for two reasons: (A) Whoever your editor-friend passes your ms. on to is only going to want three chapters and an outline at first, and (B) You want to move on this before your friend gets caught up in other things and forgets she expressed an interest. Also, go to Writer's Market and check out HarperCollins' policy on "unsolicited manuscripts" - i.e. mss. that don't arrive through an agent's office. My guess is that the company as a whole demands a writer have an agent, but there may be certain divisions of the company, such as Eos, where unagented mss. are sometimes allowed in. Whether you will eventually need an agent or not, here's what you do IMMEDIATELY: Polish your first three chapters. Put together an outline of between 2,500-5,000 words. Follow standard ms. format: One-inch margins all around Double-spaced text Courier 11 or 12 font Header consisting of your LAST NAME/Title of Book Page numbers at upper right Print on plain white bond paper DO NOT BIND IT, PUT IT IN A FANCY FOLDER OR OTHERWISE TINKER WITH IT. Find two pieces of 8.5 x 11 cardboard and a couple of sturdy rubber bands, and put it between those. Unless, of course, your friend will accept an electronic submission, in which case do all of the above except the printing and rubber bands part. (Forgive the rant. I just did a ms. critique for a local guy. Told him three times not to bind the ms. For whatever reason, he didn't want to email it to me, had to deliver it in person - printed on three-hole paper with those goddamn little two-pronged brass thingies holding it together. Nobody listens... ) Anyhoo, if at all possible, get those three chapters to your friend ASAP. She'll tell you what to do next. If she likes it, if she passes it on to an editor at Eos, if that editor likes it, they may very well set you up with an agent after the fact. But don't wait until you've finished the book. Get it to her NOW. And please let us know what happens.
Damn I guess this means I have to buckle down and work. I figure I can get the first three chapters and an outline polished enough by the end of February, provided I cut a bit of fluff out of my life (you know, the wife and kids ). Entire parts of the book are polished in my head I suppose the challenge is getting it onto that big expanse of pure white (has always been my problem - discipline). Anyway, yes I'll keep you updated if you're curious - and while I don't think time is of the essence, I will take your advice and assume that it is.
faisent, another reason I'm emphasizing speed is because the book biz has for too long been emulating the, erm, "business model" of the rest of the entertainment industry - i.e., "reorganization" is the name of the game. I can't speak for HarperCollins - they may be more stable than most - but I've watched other publishers downsize, fire entire divisions because the new senior editor doesn't like someone, even file for bankruptcy with the head honcho absconding for Vegas with his writers' royalties in his back pocket. There's a running gag among writers who've worked for Tor, for example, with regard to editorial assistants. These are the kids right out of school who are paid around 15K to do the scut work, and they melt away on an average of ever six weeks. I've had conversations that go something like: ME: Hi, may I speak with Seth, please? He was supposed to send me the pass pages last week and I haven't gotten them yet. THIS WEEK'S EDITORIAL ASSISTANT: Seth? Oh, you mean Seth. Um, he's not here anymore. My name's JoBeth. Maybe I can help you. ME: Gee, Seth was nice. How long has he been gone? JoBeth: Since last Friday. Kurt replaced him for Monday and Tuesday, but he went back to Borders. I've been here since Wednesday. What's today - Thursday? So I'll be here till tomorrow. Then I'm going back to Rhode Island to help my aunt in her knitting shop. It pays better. But let me see if I can find your galleys before I leave. If I can't, you talk to Jenna. She'll be replacing me on Monday. Now, EAs are cannon fodder. Editors last a little longer...usually. I once signed with an editor who'd been in the job for a month and was fired two weeks after my advance cleared. You can imagine what happened to that manuscript... Your editor friend has actually been in her job for two years; that's a good sign. But she may be moved around at a moment's notice. Or her contact at Eos could move up, down, or sideways, and whoever replaces that person might be a stickler for following the rules. So it's best to strike while the iron is hot, or some sort of cliche.
Ah thank you for the explanation. I'm dedicating Thursdays - Saturdays to get this done, plus whatever time I can scrape together the rest of the week. Of course, I have to work my consulting gig this Sat and Friday was friends night... *sigh* The upside is if I don't get this done and at least submitted I'll be kicking myself the rest of my life.
garamet, what does an unpublished writer send to an editor if, instead of having a story that she can turn into a outline, she wants to write poetry?
^I'd recommend going to www.writersmarket.com (or heading for the library to find the hardcover in the reference section) and checking out the many small magazines that publish poetry. It's labor intensive, but if you can send your work out to these periodicals and sell a few, you build up a track record. After you've sold 12-20 of them, you might be able to interest a small press in publishing a collection of your work. Or you might be able to move up a notch and sell the occasional individual poem to something like the New Yorker. I probably don't have to tell you that nobody earns a living writing poetry. In Shakespeare's time, poets had wealthy patrons to keep them afloat. The Romantic poets by and large came from wealthy families, and Emily Dickinson's father left her enough to live like a church mouse. The successful poets of the 20th century supplemented their incomes by teaching, lecturing, etc. But if getting your work published is the goal, the literary and so-called "little" magazines are where you start. You don't need an agent, just the ability to write a good query letter (and if you can write poetry, writing a query letter should be easy ). If your poem is accepted, you'll very often be paid only in copies of the magazine to give to friends, but it's a start. It means people get to read your work, and you build a reputation, so that when you send another poem to the same magazine, they'll be more eager to accept it. Or if you send it to Magazine B, the fact that you've already been published in Magazine A carries more weight. Good poetry moves people. It makes them think. It makes them see life differently. The commercial market may not value poetry (unless it's in the form of rock lyrics), but that doesn't lessen its intrinsic value. Go for it!
ah, money and writing... don't you just wish we lived in the 'good old days' of patrons? Of course I have a romantic view of that time, but who cares, let me dream! I'd gladly spit out a story or two celebrating my patron's wonderful personality if that would get me some cash to write... Today's only chance of being able to write in peace is winning an award, I guess. I just heard about the yearly nominees for the Dutch Libris award (prose, not poetry), with the winner to be announced on May 2nd. It's a cheque for EUR 50,000. Considering my current income, that could keep me alive and writing for 5 years (honest). If only!
^Agreed 100% about patrons. In the good old days, a writer/artist/composer acquired a patron and their worries were over. J.S. Bach supported - what was it? - two dozen children solely on his output for his patron. Since the 19th century, book publishers have pretended to fill the role of patrons, but each writer is only one of a stable of writers, and one's bankability is only as good as the last manuscript, which is only as good as the publisher chooses to make it vis-a-vis publicity, marketing, etc. Zenow, would you be eligible to apply for the Dutch Libris award for this coming year? What are the criteria? I've only ever tried for an award once. Took me several weeks and I-don't-know-how-much postage to gather everything and send it. Waited six months to get essentially the same response I get from book editors "Thank you for your submission, but it does not suit our needs at the present time." IOW, you're not an academic, we can't put your writing into a little box with a label on it, so fuck you very much. Meh. At least they returned the books I sent them. And no coffee stains on them, either. Which is more than I can say for most editors...
Oops, didn't check this thread for a long time.. I've never really checked out the criteria for the awards we have here (not a published author yet, though I write daily and intend to start sending in work.. maybe next year). The Libris award is modelled after the Booker Prize. We have several other awards as well, including awards for debutants. And then there is the Dutch Foundation for Literature: Source For now, I'll have to find a parttime job very soon & try not to let that drain my energy too much. In the past the daily grind of regular jobs dragged me into a state of apathy on several occasions.. can't let that happen now, as I'm working on.. something.
^Oh, I know the feeling. Some jobs are so boring they motivate you to write just to take your mind off them. Others, though, are not only boring but so physically and mentally draining you've got nothing left when you sit down to write. The pursuit of grants is almost a full-time job in itself. I hope you can find the time to do this and - of course - I hope you'll be successful. Please let us know what happens.
BTW, a note for Storm and anyone else who might be interested: I've been informed that the Pike novel won't be released until Summer of '06, rather than January. Pocket's gotten a dictate from TPTB to cut back to only 12 Trek novels a year, so they're having to process everything that's already in the pipeline before they can produce any new stuff, and that's moved the schedule around. *hands Storm a tissue* I know you're upset, but how do you think I feel?
Um...okay, here goes. Some people here have told me to try to publish Heck Backlash. As laughably insane as that seems, I dunno, maybe if I let the thing collect some rejection slips, it might at least feel like I did something. Where would I send something like that, a magazine or something? What about the the profanity, can I get away with that in a mag? If you don't know all this stuff, I don't wanna bug ya or nothin. Just..y'know...if you don't know, maybe you'd know where I can look or somethin. Jeez, this sounds as awkward as my answering machine messages. Well, um, the end. Beep.
^Gimme a quick word count on the whole thing and maybe I can advise you from there. (What I'm saying is, if it's too long for a magazine submission, then you'd have to try for a different venue.)
Quick word count she says, nothin's quick on this 'puter.... *Clackity clackity clack* 5 minutes later.... 7062 words.
^Hm, yeah. That's small enough for a magazine. Not to sound like I'm repeating myself, but get thee to Writers Market and make a list of mags that are looking for your kind of thing. You can either (A) blitz it out to as many as say "multiple submissions accepted" or (B) pick the top three that say "no multiple submissions," send it to the one you think will be the best fit, and wait until they let you know whether they're interested or not. If they're not, then you move to the next on your list, and so on. And let us know if you get a nibble!
You've answered a few questions about dealing with editors from a writer's point of view. This one's from the other side. My girlfriend wants to work in the publishing industry as a book editor. How does one get into that kind of job? What kind of skills are needed -- do you primarily just need a solid working knowledge of spelling and grammar, or is there more to it? What kind of training do you need to land a job at a publishing company? What are the entry-level jobs like? What kind of career paths do book editors usually follow? How hard is it to get that kind of work?
^Okay, this is just me observing who ends up at the top of the pyramid in the NY houses. Publishing is gradually moving out of Midtown Manhattan into other cities and other states, so that aggressive NY culture may not necessarily emigrate with it. However... The editors I've worked with (except at the Pocket Star Trek line; there seems to be a lot of back-and-forth between there and the comic/graphic novel houses, so a post-grad degree in Geek is usually an edge. That or simply Knowing Somebody) tend to have started as eager young kids from somewhere other than NY, usually with at least a B.A. in English from a Good School and a masochistic desire to work for less money than they'd get bagging groceries back home in Portland. They start as editorial assistants (important, especially for women and gay male aspirants: Don't learn to type too fast. Being able to type more than 20 words a minute will shunt you onto the receptionist/secretary track. There's no way to get from there to editing), usually at a pay scale around 18-20K (this in a city where a studio apartment can go for $2,000 a month; roommates are de rigeur) and bounce from one house to another for reasons I've never understood, because it's been rare to speak to the same editorial assistant more than once; they leave to go elsewhere that quickly. Skills? As aforementioned, a B.A. in English, preferably without any of those annoying double majors like education, a very eclectic reading experience (one needs to be able to cite Vonnegut and Voltaire with equal equanimity), flawless spelling, grammar, punctuation skills, and a first-hand experience in how to change the toner cartridge on the copier. Unlimited patience for wading through the "slush pile," because odds are you're the first line of defense when the mss. arrive from the agents and SOMEBODY has to pre-read the frakking things, and it sure isn't going to be a I'm-leaving-early-to-take-my-kid-to-soccer senior editor. Excellent phone skills for dealing with cranky authors and crankier senior editors, and an eidetic memory for who in the office takes what in their latte grande (order anything other than soy milk for the associate editor who's lactose intolerant, and you may as well start cleaning out your desk). For every 100 editorial assistants who enter the market, maybe 10 get noticed by a senior editor on the alternate Thursdays that he happens to be in the office and asked "How'd you like to edit Latest Overblown Manuscript by Famous but Marginally Literate Writer?" This is the Rubicon. A successful edit (i.e. one that reads exactly the way the senior editor would have edited it, if he hadn't been away at the ABA that weekend) earns you your wings. You are now an Assistant Editor. So, skills and opportunity will get you that far. To go from Assistant Editor to Associate Editor to Senior Editor, you have to be either a trained killer or damn lucky. (Damn lucky includes everyone above you on the ladder suffering cardiac arrest so that you're the only one available to take the job.) If you're not willing to lie, cheat, steal, blackmail, and step on people's necks, you don't get to be Senior Editor. And even if you do, there's no guarantee your house won't be sold or merged and the New People will decide they want to bring in Their People, in which case you may have time to empty your desk before the locks are changed. I'm exaggerating, just a little, but it seems to work that way from where I'm standing. Not much different from most corporate cultures, I guess, except for the greater percentage of people at the top who telecommute. Which means that it's really the editorial assistants who are doing most of the work, but then that's not so different, is it? Seriously, I'd advise your girlfriend to get a subscription to Publisher's Weekly. Not only does it have job listings, but it's also a good way to learn Who's on First, who's on the auction block, who's been promoted, Who's Who. My thinking is, also, since legit publishing companies are springing up in major cities outside NY, those might be the places to target for job searches first. Hope that's not too cynical, and maybe a little bit helpful.
Hey Garamet, perhaps you can settle an argument going on here locally... If I posted excerpts from my book here, would that classify the book as "previously published" when it comes time to sell the thing?
^Not AFAIK. "Previously published," as I understand it, means you got paid for it - i.e. you sold an excerpt to a magazine before it was published in book form.
^Hmm. I'd imagine once you've "given it away," it will be difficult to sell it. A magazine editor isn't going to see any profit in publishing a story that's already available on the 'net. Ditto the editor of an anthology you might send your story to. If your story were part of a collection of strictly your stories (and I don't know if that's done much anymore), having a single story available online as a kind of teaser might be a good thing, but I'm not sure. Maybe best to just put a few pages out there rather than the whole thing.
Gawd, this is embarrassing! actormike, I didn't notice this post until now (what - more than five months later?) -! Between hitting the "read next unread" and fielding baba questions...I'm sorry. So, to finally answer it - professionally, the first person to see any of my stuff is my agent, because he's the one who passes it on to the editor. Occasionally, when there's a tight deadline, I'll send the ms. to my agent and the editor simultaneously. On the personal level, yeah, there are a couple of people I will give copies before my editor's read it, just as a token of friendship, not because I'm looking for feedback. What I have never done (seems like an exercise in masochism, not to mention potentially legally dangerous) is participate in a writing seminar or one of those group-therapy things where people sit around reading their stuff so that others can tear it apart. Hope that answers your question...five months later...sheesh....
garamet, I'm shocked that you're a real live author! If I am not mistaken you wrote at least one TOS novel and I happen to have two copies of it on my bookshelf "Strangers from the Sky" I must have read if 5 times. Thanks for the good read Did you publish any other trek novels? ever consider writing an ENt novel? I'm finding those books to be lacking pretty badly.
