Barack Obama's Church

Well, thanks for that.

I'm not interested in putting spin though.

I've been trying to get people to address what proof there is that this guy is a hatemonger of Phelpsian/Grand Wizardesque proportions, and people have been reluctant to respond beyond emoticons and "Here's a bunch of links" that don't as far as I can tell show anything of the sort.

He certainly believes in a couple wacky conspiracy theories, and he says the government is racist.

Even accepting that he's 100 percent wrong, I don't see how that makes him a hatemonger.

What makes him a huge racist? That's what I'm trying to figure out?

Is the idea that he buys into these wacky conspiracy theories involving racist behavior by the government, and therefore he is a racist?

Is it that he blames government for problems facing black people, and thus exacerbates racism?

Or is it, as I suspect, more a question of style than substance? That he is fiery and a showman?

Again, why? Even assuming the worst -- that Wright is the biggest reverse-racist there is -- wouldn't part of trying to heal any racial divisions be trying to bring this guy away from his reverse-racism to a more moderate stance on race?

If you believe in promoting equality among races, it means you can't have any close personal friends who you suspect have racist leanings?

I certainly have close friends where we just agree to disagree about religion, politics or what have you. That doesn't make me any less of a person of faith that many of my friends from outside church are atheists.

Guilt by association is really a low blow.

Who's defending anything? I've said a number of times I disagree with Wright.

I'm just trying to understand what makes him a hatemonger.

Too bad. But you seem to be arguing from popularity that Wright is a hatemonger.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't see a significant difference in type.

If anything, I think it's better to say, "I'm going to maintain a deep relationship with my pastor even though I really disagree with him on a lot of the stupid and even bigoted things he says about race, and even though it might hurt me politically" than to say, "I'm going to seek out the endorsement of a pastor specifically for political gain, even though I don't agree with many of the stupid and even bigoted things he says."

I'm still having a really hard time figuring out how anyone can, in good faith, disagree with this sentiment.

I'm having a hard time figuring out why anyone would choose a pastor like that in the first place. What you believe is "better" is completely your opinion. The only FACT we have is that Obama chose this man as his spiritual adviser and mentor. Now you either have a problem with that, or you don't.

Yes, that's exactly what it boils down to. And those who are that troubled by it, whether they intended to support Obama before this came to light or not, will make a new assessment. Those who aren't will stick with their old one.

Many people around here actually find the entire affair to have been worthwhile if only to hear someone deliver a speech that was forty years in the making.

But then, I live in the most progressive urban area in the United States that doesn't border an ocean...

You live in Austin?

Great points.

Don't worry.....you will soon be on the dark side. I supported Obama once too.....back when all this got started.

His comments on NAFTA were the final straw.

And for the record....I like the preaching style that a lot of black churches have. Its VERY interesting.

And if you have a problem with that, and don't have a problem that's at least as big with McCain's choices and those of the vast majority of Republican party office holders with respect to religious advisers and endorsers, then you're a raging hypocrite. That's all I'm saying, and it's all Raoul says in the above quote, so please either disagree with me or admit I'm right.

^To be fair, one can have a problem with Obama's relationship w/ Wright and not have a problem with McCain on various other grounds (for instance, one could agree with Hagee and thus not condemn him where you would condemn Wright, or you could think that discrimination on the basis of race is worse than anti-Catholic bigotry or homophobia).

Not that such a minor caveat changes the equation of whether one should judge McCain and others by the religious figures they seek out the endorsement of or not...

Obama is gonna git dem white devils !

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Seriously, why do you keep bringing up McCain? McCain is a shitty candidate. I'm not voting for McCain. I don't like anything about McCain. And even if I did, I don't recall McCain being hailed as a racial uniter despite being mentored by a race baiter. Furthermore, if you think Republicans get a free pass on religious affiliation, than maybe you could explain that to Romney. Your attempts at deflection are becoming comical.

He says that whites control the government and created HIV to destroy blacks.

If he doesn't intend a racial context, why consistently use the word "white?"

To me, the constant usage of the word "white" can't mean anything else.

Firstly, the government is not white. Secondly, Wright is hardly saying that the government causes a lot of problems. He is not complaining that taxes are too high or that farm subsidies cause inefficiency or that there's too much regulation in the rubber dogshit industry. He's saying that the government--which is white--is trying to KILL blacks.

Then there's no reason to bring race into it. Except that, for Wright, the terms "white government" and "government" are synonomous.

Not a long side discussion. He's CLEARLY a hatemonger.

I should think spreading heinous lies about another race would suffice.

But, in truth, you'll never get that. I'm sure Hitler never said in the course of a speech "I hate the Jews!" Instead he harangued about how they were the cause of all of the German people's misery.

His contant attachment of the word white to government suggests that he does not draw a distinction.

Orwell had another expression: doublethink.

What part of "God damn America!" is taken out of context? What context changes "America deserved 9/11?" Where does he say "Just kidding!" after accusing the "white government" of attempted genocide of blacks?

What oppression? I admit that engineering HIV to decimate the black ranks is pretty underhanded, but what oppression?!?

Then expect no quarter from your enemy.

No, but those would be inconsistent with the group's purpose. The liberals would fit right in at a "God damn America" rally; it's practically their motto.

Already established in my mind. Perhaps Wright's worse. Phelps is an idiot who interprets everything as God's punishment for sin; but at least he doesn't feel the need to slander his country to get his message across.

Oh, for fuck's sake, Raoul. Kindly tell me the difference between an evil person and a person who makes evil decisions?

At the WHITE government. The one that's trying to kill black people.

I simply do not believe that Obama was taken by surprise by Wright's comments. I find it simply unbelievable that two people could be so close, for so long, and one of them a U.S. Senator, and NOT talk politics. It strains credulity.

I was illustrating that it is ridiculous to take Wright's villification of all things white and American (again, synonomous in his mind) and NOT come to the conclusion that he has immense disdain for both.

By my standards they most certainly are.

Uh huh. LOL.

I wouldn't say he's a hatemonger of quite that level. I'd say he's a hatemonger of a Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson level.

The difference is that no other candidate chose to make a hatemonger like that a close personal friend of their family.

Well it clearly makes him a racist. And he profits from the outrage and animosity that he instills in his audience, whipping up hate against the American government and its intentional oppression and destruction of the black people.

Yeah, pretty much hatemongering.

The fact that you don't see how once again shows just how big a problem there is.

The same petard he hoists others on.

Yes.

It is the EXACT same thing as a Klan member talking about how the 'mud people' bring down the white race.

Yes. It's irresponsible hate mongering that widens the divide, and is thus the exact opposite of what Obama claims to represent.

I initially just read the transcripts. Those are bad enough. His style exacerbates it, but there is clearly substance to his racism and hatemongering as well.

Reverse racist? Jesus fucking christ on a stick.

He's a racist, period. All it takes is prejudice and bigotry against another race. Having brown skin doesn't make racism 'reverse-racism.' It's JUST racism.

But wow, is that telling that you would buy into that horse shit.

Is there any evidence that is what was attempted? Obama certainly didn't make any statements to that effect.

It appear more that Obama cashed in on the racist policies of this church in order to obtain credibility in his district as a 'true' black man, whatever the hell that mean.

Suspect? Yeah, absolutely no spin there.

Obama has acknowledged he knew about the 'controversial' nature of Wright's sermon after initially lying about it.

Why? Because Time showed that he knew about it last year, and instead of denouncing Wright just tried to ease him out the door.

So you equate atheists with racists, eh? Interesting.

Yes, people are judged by those they chose to associate themselves with - especially public figures.

Certainly every other candidate is held to the same standard.

No, you are denying over and over again that he is a hatemonger. You may disagree with him, but it's not like he's a really bad guy like Phelps...

There is an odor of foetur in the state of Denmark.

The vast majority of people seem to think that, don't they?

I wonder why...

Complete tripe.

First, he did throw him under a bus as soon as it was political necessary for him to do so. He no longer works on the campaign, and Obama is trying to distance himself from Wright's words. The problem is why did it take national media coverage for him to do so when it was fine for him to listen to sermons of this type for years.

Second, McCain going to Hagee is a political move. It isn't a close personal affiliation.

Obama took a man who preaches racists hate filled diatribes into his family. He says in his book that he considers him family. He has had an affiliation with him for most of his adult life, to the point where he chose him to perform his marriage ceremony.

He calls him 'uncle', 'mentor' and 'advisor.'

Wright is a close personal friend of personal importance to Barak Obama.

Hagee is a politically convenient endorsement for John McCain.

The two aren't even in the same ballpark.

But then, there's more of that 'not spinning' that you are doing.

Which makes it all the worse when on one day he says that he never heard Wright make statements or comments that were racist, or hateful, yet, then a couple of days later changes that song and dance a bit.

Now they need to give Hillary some free air time for a rebuttal. I mean is there not some equal time clause for politicians or whatever?

I understood what he said the first time to mean that he didn't hear the particular rant about Hillary Clinton that was circulating around. But I could be wrong.

It makes sense though, since I can't see Wright delivering that particular rant with Obama actually present.

I'm surprised she hasn't responded yet.

Not that she needs too.....Obama is doing just fine killing his own campaign without her help.

Now it appears that what we have with Obama is an extremely talented orator. He is good at giving sermons. He has used a similar tone and even similar statements that he has learned from his mentor and what might even be considered a father figure in Jeremiah Wright and used to his advantage in this campaign.

But, the simple fact that he has supported this church and its leaders of hate is wrong in my opinion.

IIRC, his initially said that he was unaware that Wright had made 'any' inflammatory comments.

And that he wasn't present for any of them.

4 days later he comes out and says he sat in the pew while Wright was making those comments.

Now it appears that what we have with Obama is an extremely talented orator. He is good at giving sermons. He has used a similar tone and even similar statements that he has learned from his mentor and what might even be considered a father figure in Jeremiah Wright and used to his advantage in this campaign.

But, the simple fact that he has supported this church and its leaders of hate is wrong in my opinion.

Oh I don't know about that.

In Charlotte today, just the mention of last night's speech triggered a seven minute standing ovation.

Apparently he still DOES support that church and its hateful leaders.

That about sums it up. Unfortunately, I think that at this point, with the somewhat rock star status he has achieved, some are willing to give him a pass.

Although polls are showing that this current information has put a significant dent in his support nationally. The man who was thought to be nearly unbeatable at a national level in the popular vote is no longer that unbeatable.

I'm pretty sure that Anti-white hate speech is going to speak a whole lot more , knowing that this guy is his mentor and advisor, than any back peddling public speaking that Obama can do. No Christian preacher is going to use that kind of language that he used and no Christian is going to be anywhere near a church like that.

This whole deal with his pastor isn't going anyone by any means....and while Obama is doing a shit poor job of damage control(who the hell runs his campaign anyways?)....McCain is off looking presidential.

Now, no matter who you support....the primaries being over for the Republicans already IS going to help them win. Plus, Obama and Hillary might fight all the way to the convention, and God knows how that will end.

Yes, Obama does look very beatable right now.

You know....this whole anti-white, hate thing that Obama has going just might energize the evangelical base to vote for McCain.

Very much so. I also do not think that this issue is going away anytime soon.

No, he said the white-controlled government lied about creating HIV to commit genocide.

This may be an unimportant distinction to you.

But it's a pretty large one to me.

It's the difference between saying, again, "Mexican illegal immigrants are leeches" and saying "Mexicans are leeches."

I didn't say that he doesn't intend a racial context, any more than the person who criticizes Mexican illegal immigrants.

I'm just saying that he doesn't AFAIK mean for that racial context to apply to anyone beyond who he specifically attributes it to, the rich white people in charge of the government.

Fair enough. Then to me, he is not a hatemonger. He's just someone who's very mistaken about a lot of things in the racial arena.

Is a hatemonger to you, and if so, why?

[/quote]
Firstly, the government is not white.[/quote]

Not entirely, obviously, but as an overwhelming percentage of those in control of the government in either official or unofficial capacities, rich white people do control it.

In the various clips, he blamed government for several specific problems, including the creation of HIV, the spread of drugs, the high incarceration of black men, racial profiling, and several less specific ones such as treating citizens like they weren't human, hypocrisy when it comes to human rights, and so forth.

So I don't really get your point there. Is it that the HIV accusation is so outrageous that it's racist on its face?

I suppose a Wright would say that race is already in the situation and he's simply pointing it out.

I guess at the root of it, my definition of hatemonger is fundamentally different from yours then.

Mine is: Someone who hates and promotes hate of all members of a group or groups.

You've already conceded he doesn't seem to be doing that.

So what he does is, what, inappropropriately criticizes the government using racial terms?

I remember you said that blacks commit more crime in absolute numbers than whites. That was wrong. I consider that a heinous lie. Are you a hate monger?

More to the point, his statements aren't about "another race," but about certain members of another race, those who control the government.

How does that differ

At the very least, though, Hitler blamed ALL Jews for the German's peoples misery. And I'm sure you could point to various speeches where he directly incited people to hate Jews indiscriminately.

Not so much with Wright.

That's the exact reverse of what his attachment should connote. If he thought that whites in general and the government were one and the same, he wouldn't have to say "the white government."

The context that he's talking about the government and not the people changes "God damn America!" I have the same sort of gut reaction of horror when I hear God damn America in isolation that I imagine most patriotic people would have. Damn 350 million people? Damn the Constitution, jazz, brilliant scientists, masterful poets, democracy and all the other best parts of America?

Even from the little snippet of the sermon I saw, however, on reflecting I saw more of what he was trying to get at, which is a fairly standard Christian message: the powers of this world often don't conform with what God wants.

And those parts of the American government that don't conform with God's desires deserve condemnation and arguably damnation.

I'd say almost everyone, including me, has made decisions at one time or another, for one reason or another, that were evil or sinful.

I'd say that an evil person is someone who either at his core has something wrong with him, who primarily makes evil decisions, and/or who has made one or several decisions that are so fundamentally evil that it would taint that person in his entirety.

To me, to truly be a hatemonger, you have say all members of a group are inherently evil people.

As I said above, Obama acknowledged broadly knowing Wright's positions on race.

What you said does nothing to suggest or imply that Wright or Farrakhan believe that Obama share beliefs.

So you're a mindreader now? Good for you. I, by contrast, have to go what he actually says. And he doesn't villify everything white and American, but the white American government.

If I have time, I'll try to find the thread that I'm thinking of. It's entirely possible that you're right. But as I recall, you essentially had to use a racial slur to show racism against blacks.

Or you could perhaps articulate what the standard is.

Is it merely saying something false and derogatory about some members of a racial group that makes you a racist?