Civil War In Ukraine? ...and Venezuela?

Well the Europeans are fairly stupid about this, then. I'm not going to concern myself with that regarding how we should respond to Russia in the Ukraine.

Iraq did fund terrorists that had killed Americans. Saddam Hussein himself made a big deal about sending money to the families of suicide bombers who attacked restaurants in Israel that included American victims.

Stalin forcibly moved the Tatars there - Ecky

Taters? I don't imagine Stalin getting that far into Texas to move the Taters.

The crowd who have taken over in Kiev are blatant Neo Nazis. They aren't even hiding it. If Russia goes in and kicks them out more power to them.

Post a link. Unbiased source.

You proposed several actions that lead directly to massive military escalation. And my bright idea is not to make a bad situation worse just because we can't think of a way to make it better.

I don't think there is anything the West can do about this, at this point.

Throughout all of this I'm wondering what the reaction would have been had an elected Europe favouring government been overthrown and replaced with a pro-Russian one.

More correctly, some of them are.
There are five parties to Ukraine's new coalition. One of them is neo-Nazi and another is extreme nationalist. These people are very hostile to Russians, which explains to some extent why Moscow is so worked up about it.

But I thought you'd quite like that since you're a fan yourself.

Obama "warning" Russia to put their gun back in their holster or it will be costly? This isn't a boat-full of Somali pirates buddy.
Might want to sit this one out or at least shut up about it completely.

Unfortunately I have to agree. Good ideas tend to fizzle out here thanks to very strong lobbying against pretty much anything but the status quo. Unless it's not lucrative enough of course.

Yup. Lil' Kim and Putin got away with their shennanigans because Dubya was overextended with Iraq and Afghanistan. So IIRC, we bit our lip and used diplomacy with n Korea and just didn't say shit about Georgia. Obama is in the middle of gutting the military and has shown that he has no idea how to do foreign policy, so if he was smart he wouldn't bluff on this. But he's drank his own Kool-Aid and thinks he can make oceans recede so he's going to get laughed at by Putin and told to sit down.

If there is credence to the idea that Putin has been emboldened by the perception of American weakness, we should blame Congress. Anybody besides me remember why we didn't take action in Syria?

Does anybody know if Putin can be persuaded by bowing to him? It may be important.

Congress will only fall in line on a foreign policy crisis if they see the president willing to go to the mat and take risks.

People forget that President Obama will probably never run for a political office again in his life. Most members of Congress will. So members of Congress Democrat or Republican are not going to risk their entire careers trying to persuade a half hearted president to man up.

Pretty much, sadly.

Because here as then, it was a dumb idea in the first place.

Well, that's not true. The US did nothing about Syria because their Congress is indecisive and cowardly. However, they refrained from doing the wrong thing for the wrong reasons, because it was a dumb idea in the first place.

Agreed, which is an important reason for not having term limits. Imagine if half the Senate was on the way out in the next two election cycles, how that might embolden some of them. But setting that aside, my point was people who wish to blame Obama for encouraging Putin don't really understand why the US rarely acts in meaningful response to these things.

Obama is hardly to blame aside from a generalized, periphreal sort of way. But still, his feckless foreign and military policies, lack of gravitas and lack of real credibility with Congress and on the world stage makes even the mildest of coherent responses very difficult.

Because it would have been a terrible idea and Obama was stupid to imply that we would?

I agree with what has been said about President Obama.

He lives in a world where he thinks that "If I said it then it then that's the way it is". He actually seems to believe that if he makes a public statement then that can some way move mountains completely independently of any actual action. He thought his simple public statement about Syria would actually force Assad to comply without having to so anything. Same with the Russians.

Obama's attitude seems to be what you get after a few years of being surrounded by adoring sycophants.

That's debatable, but it's also irrelevant to what I was pointing out. People are saying that Putin figures he can go after Ukraine because thugs like him and Assaad can do as they please. Perhaps that's true, but the reason they can do as they please is that Western democracies in general are not well disposed to decisive action in a crisis unless really pushed. And it's not because Presidents don't want to take a stand, but because Congress doesn't often have the balls to back them. Maybe just once, you could take off your partisan hat for a minute and think about that. And yes, I know you'll simply counter that Congress is my code word for Republicans, but you'd be wrong. Democrats did the same thing in the 80s, tying Reagan's hand in Central America.

When Congress would not back President Reagan in Central America he simply went around them.

Clinton never bothered asking or receiving permission to bomb Serbia Twice. Once for 4 days, the other for 78 days.

Congress never takes the lead on a foreign policy matter. In fact it is considered the field that presidents have the most power.

And what have we learned about when Obama "simply went around them," huh? Assholes flip out about how he needs to be impeached. You want to know why Obama is unable to act? Our political process has reached the point where no matter what a President does, half the country reflexively hates him and cries out for revolution. That's the fault of people like you and Volpone, Dayton.

I'm curious gul.

When have I called for President Obama to be impeached or called for revolution?

And don't try to walk it back by claiming you were using a metaphor. You directly linked those statements to me (don't remember what Volpone has posted, all I care is if he agrees with me).

You know, what does it say about the Great & Wonderful Obama (hyperbola used) that the hapless Republicans who have controlled all of ONE half of Congress for less than four years make it impossible to do his damn job?

Okay, I set up that other thread as a "ship in a bottle" holodeck set up, we'll let them talk in circles and continue discussing this relevant point over here.

BTW no one let them in on the secret.

I said, "people like you." that means not necessarily Dayton, but people who think similarly to Dayton. Clear enough?

Sending the Sixth Fleet to show the flag would be pointless, and deploying them for combat is a bad idea.