Fraud at Texas state wrestling championships

I see that and I raise you one David Reimer:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer

Born a cis male who had a botched circumcision and per the medical advice of a quack his parents raised him as a girl. Finally at age 14, Brenda (as he'd been raised as) was told the truth about what happened and was allowed to ditch the hormones.* The short version of this story is all the coaching in the world didn't convince David that he was a girl, despite not knowing about his botched circumcision until high school.

*The hormones BTW left him with considerably more feminized features than his identical twin brother and he'd only taken those for a few years. I remember seeing his interview on Oprah as a kid and it was a drastic difference.

I see this get brought up all the time by people who think it proves gender dysphoria, or that gender is a social construct, but it actually disproves it. David was born male, and in spite of efforts to raise him as female, biology won out in the end. Frankly what was done to him was horrible, and the doctor that used him as a science experiment should have seen some consequences for it. The real sad part to that story is how it ended.

Biology is one thing. It does not decide what individual rights and freedoms mean. We went through this with homosexuality over the last hundred years -- it doesn't matter if it's innate or anything else; everyone still gets the same rights as everyone else.

But how much study was there on this till five years ago, though? The one guy doing a lot of research on this in the early 20th century was a gentleman named Magnus Hirschfel and he lived in Germany. Then Nazis happened and they burned the majority of his research, because Nazis.

But yeah, for most people this is new territory for most.

And much of the reason suicide still happen is because they have little to no support and no connections to anyone and are continually ostracized. I'd put good money that within ten years, we'll see the suicide rates for the younger trans population drop because they have more resources and more community support from who they are than a generation ago.

That said, as @Nova has repeatedly said and that I'm sure @Tererun may agree with, no one wants to be trans. If there was a pill to take that would help them accept their bodies, there'd probably be a wait list that would make the one for that $35k Tesla look like a Post-it memo in comparison. But we don't have that. And if it came down to it, if a kid of mine told me he was a girl, I'd much rather have a living daughter than to bury a son.

I'm not suggesting people with gender dysphoria have their individual rights taken away. It's funny how you keep trying to go back to that even though no one here has made that argument.

My point is, telling someone they're something doesn't change what their brain is telling them. A boy forced to live as a trans girl was still a boy. A couple telling their daughter that they wish she'd been born a boy and said daughter acting as a boy to please them is still a girl. A boy who was raised in the Baptist Church and told from a young age that anything but being a woman-loving man is wrong and still identifies as a girl...is a girl.

And even if you supported them getting surgery, that's no guarantee that you'd have a living daughter either. As I said, this often happens even after they have transitioned.

And my point is that just because you gave someone hormones and surgery, and told them all their life they were a girl, didn't actually change the fact that they were a boy, and that this kept asserting itself. It very handily disproves the idea that gender is a social construct.

Sure you are. Being treated equally is a right.

In what way are they not getting treated equally?

I would say in the present in most societies no one starts off wanting to be trans. Over time people realize a lot of the problems you encounter are because of other people. Transitioning should be done through puberty and living as your gender should start much younger than that. You start off with all these lovely people who are so concerned for your well-being they want to stop you from being what you are supposed to. It is for your own good they insult you and pretend you are some sexual deviant who just wants to peep at the other gender at 5 years old. Those people take great pleasure in reminding you they are never going to let you have a moment of acceptance as the gender you are supposed to be because it is what is best for you. That is often followed by because God said so. All that keeps on ps on going and going, and really it becomes one of the biggest problems. It is really not about caring, God, or even some belief it would be best for you to live as your birth gender. It is all about causing others pain, and trans people have an easy to see target.

I would not give it up myself, but if someone else wanted to I would not stand in their way. I think it is a good thing to have trans people. I think it is good we have gay people. I think it is good we have people of different colors and cultures. It all adds things to existence. I have seen things in this existence from a perspective that is really different, and I cannot say I would want a life without that knowledge. Sometimes knowledge hurts, but that pain is better than ignorance which many think is bliss.

Is your answer to these two questions the same?

Can a cis boy compete in the wrestling tournament?

Can a trans boy compete in the wrestling tournament?

Your question is loaded in that a trans boy is not actually male. I feel this argument has been explained rather well by Paladin. It's unfortunate, but due to circumstances this person may simply not be able to compete in this sport.

But at least I supported them. I can't shield a kid from all the pains, but a kid who knows their parent will support them has a far better chance than one who doesn't.

So does every trans person who lives in terms bible belt and grew up around the shaming of being anything but straight.

Right.

"So, young lady, to fulfill your dream of being the state wrestling champion, you only have to wrestle that roided-up girl."

"Seems fair to me!"

The law only kept the transperson from wrestling with the boys; it IN NO WAY required this person to wrestle with the girls. That was this person's choice, and it only happened by exploiting a loophole in the rules. And, not only was it was a shitty thing to do, the blatant shitiness of it will ensure that the rules are tightened up in the future.

For what conditions do female persons typically take testosterone?

I mean, use some common sense: using testosterone would INSTANTLY disqualify you from most competitive sports at the college or pro level. Don't you wonder why?

Wow, I could've had a more fulfilling life if I'd just wrestled against girls. I'd feel real good about winning that trophy, you betcha!

The fact that this person could wrestle competitively with boys demonstrates just how unfair it is to the girls.

Damn, if I were a mod, I could've removed this derp into its own thread.

That is what you got from that? Yes, what was done to David was horrible, but it proves gender is innate and known by the individual regardless of the physical body. David was raised from the point of birth as a female. From the earliest time David knew he was male. That doctor played head games with him and his family telling them if they push things enough David would be happy being a girl, but that never happened. This was during a time when doctors had no real idea about things like gender identity.

What this proves is that if we made you live as a woman you would be in pain and discomfort for the rest of your life just like a trans person. Women are not gender phosphoric abounds being women. They can be comfortable without themselves, but you cannot be comfortable with yourself as a woman even if you never had a sign you were male. David was proof of that.

Cases like David and the pain that comes along with having to be the wrong gender is why psychologists would call it child abuse if some liberal parents decided to raise their child as the opposite gender. The law does not endorse that. Science does not endorse that. Liberals do not endorse that. It is all because of what happened with people like David.

What's at issue here is that there are signs that something else is at work here.

This goes back to traditional gender roles and how not everyone has to fit into them, as well as how homosexuality is actually probably genetic (which is backed up by all the examples seen in every other sexually dimorphic species). It does not in any way illustrate gender being a social construct, and given the evidence to the contrary, that is not an argument that can be made.

David's physical body was what was behind it. Just as in experiments with very young children and with infant primates who have not been subjected to any kind of socializing, they overwhelmingly illustrated the opposite of what you're claiming.

David was male. They attempted to raise him as a female, as in, that was the social construct. If gender is only a function of socialization, then David should have taken to it. The fact he didn't shows that his gender was not a social construct but rather was based on his biological sex.

I will agree that it was unsportsmanlike for this person to wrestle competitively with the girls while taking testosterone as hrt. He made an effort to wrestle competitively with the guys, it you are lying when implying that was an option. He was refused. Despite being unfair, I think the choice to wrestle on the female side forces the people in charge to look at and alter the rules to put trans men with other men for competition. Obviously just asking rationalizing with logic did not work. So now they can either have this happen again, and it will if they do not fix things, or they change the rules to reflect the status of hrt before srs so this does not happen again.

David's male organs were removed and his hormones were administered by pill. David had both genders when born, but his gender identity was male. You really have no idea. Your only purpose here is to troll others by pretending you have some knowledge of gender. You should go back to trying to be a white klansman . You were much more convincing as that mr nausica.

That's interesting, since @Paladin described the situation diametrically opposed to your description; your only agreement is on the trans person having to be excluded, but for completely different reasons. Anyway, if you can't see that Yes is not equal to No, I can't help you.

Which did not stop him from being male. Did John Wayne Bobbitt stop being male when his wife cut his dick off?

Yeah, just ignore the fact the entire premise of your argument has been disproven and just claim the other person is trolling. Nice job there, Herr Goebbels.

The fact that you cannot see that biological sex is not going to change with surgery or hormones just illustrates your inability to recognize reality for what it is.

You can try to twist it around any way you want, but the fact remains that this person was socialized to be something he wasn't, and it didn't work. This also wasn't a case of one person doing something to another. As far as everyone outside of that family knew, David was a girl, and thus that is how he was treated. If gender truly was only a social construct, David should have been satisfied that he was female, but that isn't what happened.

Again, biology isn't the issue. And Yes still doesn't mean No.

"Unsportsmanlike?" Yes, at a minimum that's what it was.

Didn't say it was an option. If it wasn't an option, then that should've been the end of it.

Like I said, I'd bar any athlete that takes testosterone.

Yes, it is.