If the South had won the War Against Northern Aggression...?

I haven't read any of Turtledove's books. It's hard enough getting the Yankees to understand what really did happen.

Please, can we get back on topic, and focus on Dutchmen, and dead baby Hitlers?

Hey, I'm with you. They're crazy.

Just don't lump us in with them. Our job is to make sure the rest of you loons don't start waving the revolver around, that's it.

Awh man I missed another Confederate apologist thread? I see all the usual idiocies are on display...hey Ted even suggested the British were going to back the South. He's so adorable when he's in his dilusions. Wait wait..the North, back the Germans in WWI and WWII?!? Ah, Slavery Apologists have reached North=Nazi stages here. Took em long enough.

Britian would have loved to open up trade relations with the CSA. Why sell to one country when you can sell to two? Doubly true with the Confederacy's agriculture.

Guns for Cotton was Britain's 19th century version of Land Lease.

Whose ass did you pull that statement out of? Missouri is Midwestern, plain & simple. We don't say y'all, we don't cook grits, and we don't really give a crap about NASCAR. Hell, we were only a Slave State as part of some compromise at the time.

By the time of the Cotton Embargo British Industry was overwhelmed with cotton. They had more than enough. Furthermore, England detested slavery, and would only have joined in once the fighting was pretty much over to try and get a piece of the peace terms pie. There was absolutly no way the British were ever going to actively help the South gain independence. They saw the Confederacy for the backwards slaveocracy that poured out of every facit of its government.

Politics and power trump morality, bud.

NO!

Mix Southerners with Dutchmen, you get Draka...

How about starvation, asshole? Most of the food that the British Isles consumed at the time came from Northern Imports. War with the USA meant the British also starved. I know you're the dumbest person here, but really, try and hide it sometimes?

The South full of the Dutch?

Heh, you think we're going after Muslies now...

The stupidity on display is astounding.

Even if the Army of Northern Virginia had won at Gettysburg there's nothing suggesting that the UK would have normalized relations with the CSA based on that victory alone. After all, the Army of Northern Virginia had pretty much been running butt-wild all over the eastern theater for the better part of two years. If memory serves, and I believe it does, the UK's sticking point was the slavery issue, not the victory issue.

Oh, and I still think the invasion of the North was a idiotic plan. I completely understand that sometimes you have to gamble big to win big, but when Jackson and Longstreet tell you it's a damned fool idea, and with all due respect to General Lee whom I see as a great man and general, a wise man would have, should have, listened.

As for what the CSA would be like today if they had won? I don't care to speculate in any great detail, but I refuse to view it through rose tinted glasses. Yes, I think slavery would have finally been abolished, but I believe that the same forces that resisted the abolition movement, would have also resisted the shift away from an agricultural economy, thus leaving the CSA at a huge disadvantage to the rest of the quickly modernizing first world.

Why did you come in this thread, you obviously arn't willing to entertain the "what if" presented at the start. Looks to me like you only came in here to "piss on the camp fire" so to speak.

I'm perfectly willing to entertain "What Ifs" as long as they have some basis in reality. An independent South would been a 2nd Mexico. With resistane to industrialization entrenched for atleast the next generation and slavery making them a pariah on the world stage they would have been left in the North's dust as it continued down its own path of Industrialization. The discovery of oil would have helped the South some, but without the North dragging the culture along like it did, it would remain hopelessly backwards. When the slaves finally did figure out they were 30% of the population and make an attempt to do something about it things would be hell. Whenever slavery did end, almost assurdly today laws making african-confederates 2nd rate citizens would still exist there. Basically another South Africa in that regard except enough whites to keep it going.

Well they didn't, so suck it up and cry somewhere else.

Yep...it's about as pointless as pondering if Germany had won the War Against Claustrophobia and Unchecked Population Growth.

If the North supported Germany during WWI there wouldn't have been any Nazis.

Not that we would have ever gone that long without another war with anti-slavery groups like the underground railroad operating out of the North with impunity and the inevitable skirmishes during the westward expansion.

Shucks, there must be some really cool SF books about that too.

I have only one thing to say to this thread:

If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
The day Elvis passed away would be our national holiday.
If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
I'd make my surpreme court down in Texas and we wouldn't have no killers getting off free.
If they were proven guilty then they would swing quickly,
instead of writin' books and smilin' on T.V.
We'd all learn cajan cookin' in Luiousiana
and I'd put that capital back in Alabama.
We'd put Florida on the right track, 'cause we'd take Miami back
and throw all them pushers in the slammer.

Oh if the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
The day young Skynyrd died, we'd show our southern pride.
If the south woulda won we woulda had it made.
"Play alittle dixieland boys. Ah yes!"

I'd have all the whiskey made in Tennessee
and all the horses raised in those Kentucky hills.
The national treasury would be in Tupilo, Mississippi
and I'd put Hank Williams picture on one hundred dollar bill.
I'd have all the cars made in the Carolina's
and I'd ban all the ones made in China.
I'd have every girl child sent to Georgia to learn to smile
and talk with that southern accent that drives men wild.
I'd have all the fiddles made in Virginia, 'cause they sure can make 'em sound so fine.
I'm going up on Wolverton Mountain and see ole Cliften Clowers and have a sip of his good ole Arkansas wine.

Hey if the south woulda won we'd a had it made.
I'd probably run for president of the southern states.
When Patsy Cline passed away that would be our national holiday.
If the south woulda won we'd a had it made.
Olay he hee hee . I said if the south wouda won we would a had it made!

Might even be better off!

Carry on!

We'd all be driving our monster trucks ton NASCAR races from our trailer parks while listening to Lynard Skynard.

Lynyrd Skynyrd

I wonder what would have happened had Lee hit the North like Sherman hit the South?

Would public opinion in the North turned against Lincoln and forced an end to the war?

Anyway...there's no real telling what might have happened had the South won. Too many variables in play...like the South giving in to realpolitic and freeing the slaves. Or not. What effect would future wars have? Would WWI and WWII worsen or strengthen North/South ties? Hard to say, really.

But from everything I've read, only Northern war weariness would have resulted in a Southern victory. Like WWII, once the US was in the war, Axis defeat was assured. And for the same reasons - the US could totally outproduce the Confederacy (and in WWII, outproduced ALL of the other combatants combined). Once people like Grant and Sherman were in play, it was essentially over for the South - if only because the North didn't run out of ammo.

To whoever said the US would have backed the Nazis in WWII, public opinion polls from before the US got involved generally went something like 84% in favor of the allies, 15% don't care, 1% in favor of the axis (this according to a history textbook, anyway... I don't have a better source). So no, I don't think so.

The South would have gone the abolition route if they'd won, simply because they'd understand why there was a problem with the abolition movement as the Feds were pushing it in the first place.
The US gov't was pushing abolition as a straight issue of freeing the slaves, without compensation to their former owners... and that would have cost the owners much invested money.

Wouldn't have Zoidberg.

They were talking about World War I...
And yeah, the North may very well have gone with the Germans while the CSA went with Britain and France, since after the war, both would be substantial trading partners with the CSA.

If anything, the Confederacy might have supported the Reich (for racism if nothing else) - though honestly, a Confederate victory would have changed the world so much that the Reich wouldn't have existed.

Will someone just let them seceed already?

Let them support the Katrina leeches all by themselves and handle any other hurricane that hits them.

And since they have Ingalls/Avondale we know that their Navy would be easily defeated if theUSS San Antonio is any indication if they decide to get frisky later.

Why would the CSA support the killing of Jews?

Anti-Jewish sentiment's never been a significant issue in the South.