"Stacking Patients" in U.K.?

Might as well title this thread "Paging Dan Leach" i suppose.

Anyway, I haven't researched this or read about it or any damn thing - I'm just bomb throwing because I'm too lazy to do all that. I was watching glenn Beck earlier and he was talking about the wonders of the U.K. universal health care system (again) and tonights vision of bliss and joy from that blessed land concerns the fact that politicians have pledged that no one will have to wait longer than four hours (FOUR HOURS!!!!!) in the "Emergency" Room.

Turns out that in order to keep that promise, the hospitals are making patients wait in the ambulance as long as necessary in order to be sure that once they are officially checked in to the ER they will see a doctor within 4 hours.

Some - according to the Ambulance Drivers union from whom he is getting his info, as much as FIVE HOURS - IN AN AMBULANCE!

And what, of course, is the natural consequence of having a parking lot full of ambulance's with waiting patients that the ER won't accept?

Other patients who need an ambulance that is tied up.

Beck mentioned one guy by name....16 year old teen with leukemia who's doctor sent for an ambulance because it was critical and urgent the kid get to a critical care unit right away. No ambulance came. See, there were three crews ready to roll...except for the patient they could not off-load to the ER.



Do i know from empirical evidence that this claim is entirely as it was presented by the Union?

No, I don't.

But there are too many such anecdotes about "Universal" single payer health care for them ALL to be bullshit.

So, to paraphrase Baba, "Explain this Dan"

That's easy:

It came form Glen Beck's mouth therefore the report was taken out of context in every conceivable way by a man with an obvious agenda and bias towards a healthcare system that is superior to the United States healthcare system.

How'd I do?

hey, If I admit it up front you can skip the easy way out and say something productive - if you got anything.

Oh no, I don't give a shit about wait times in UK hospitals. I can see how it might be a good idea to keep some patients in an ambulance in case a bed comes open in another hospital across town, but I don't see anything suggesting that's the case here.

I'm just surprised you'd be so open about the bomb throwing.

It's not as bad in Canada, but it's getting pretty close. We have 4 hour waiting times to see a doctor at a clinic. I've never heard of 4 hour wait times in EMERGENCY, and if it's a life threatening thing, they will usually see you immediately, but if you are in excruciating pain, but your life is not in immediate danger, they will leave you in the waiting hall - in agony. I had a friend who was involved in a gang shootout, and he got shot in the ass 3 times. After taking the fragments out, they left him in the hallway, in full view of the public. I think he was suppose to stay overnight, but he just said "screw it" and checked out of there to recover at home instead.

I think a solution to countries who want publicly run health care is to have two tiers of it - one where the user pays, and gets service immediately, and the public one, where all the bums and losers go. You then tax the private sector to pay for the public one.

Of course, I prefer everyone pay their own way, but that will never happen in Canada. Universal Health Care is too much of a sacred cow up here, and most voters, both liberals and conservatives, will throw any politician out on their ass who dares to suggest it be completely privatized. Even bringing up a two tiered system brings upon them scorn and derision.

But hey, at least the price is right!

Here in Americaland, I checked into the hospital with severe abdominal pain. Took 'em about a half-hour to get me out of the empty waiting area into a bed. After poking at me for a bit, they decided I needed a CT scan because they thought my appendix was on its way out.

I'm shoved in an ambulance an hour after finally getting into a bed, with a nice morphine haze. Sent off to the nearest hospital with a CT scanner, and I wait.

For five hours.

Thankfully, because of the morphine, I could actually sleep for a good part of that time. I get rolled into the CT room, get scanned, and then rolled back to my little temporary room off the emergency room. Incidentally, right next door to where I stayed with my ex for six hours when she was having heart palpitations - took her an hour and a half of that just to get admitted. Four hours later, at 1 AM, they finally transfer me into a permanent room. Turns out my appendix really does want the fuck out of my body.

Surgery's scheduled for 3 PM. I sleep, thanks only to the morphine, and I wait.

Total time between my entering the ER and hitting surgery? About 24 hours.

Now, obviously, I made it. But there has to be a better way. I'm not saying the surgery scheduling could have been helped. But I think I probably should have been able to make it into a real hospital bed well before 1 AM.

None of this excuses the wait times in the UK. But I'm just saying that while our system might not be coughing blood, it's certainly got a nasty sounding hack going on.

You must not have been high risk. I went to school for three days with sever stomach pain and only left halfway through a Friday, and even then was only driven to the hospital against my choice despite being hunched over in pain. They didn't give me a CT scan either- test #1 was push down real hard on my appendix and ask if it hurts. Obviously I wanted to slug the doctor. Next test was drop trou and lay slightly on my side. So at least you didn't have to get violated. My appendix was so inflamed that they couldn't get the cameras and whatnot in through any small incisions, or it out the same way, so I now have a 4-5 inch scar across my belly. All in all I waited an hour before hitting the OR.

Four hour wait is just minor stuff like cuts and broken bones.
If it's a real emergency they go in straight away without any wait.

Okay, I'll share my experiences with the US healthcare system. Never have I had to wait more than a few minutes and have always been diagnosed and effectively treated well within an hour. Without delving into further detail I've never sought attention for anything minor.

The lone exception is when I was stung by a sea urchin, I still received immediate treatment yet the nurse misdiagnosed the wound and iced my foot. The exact opposite of the proper course of action.

Thankfully the doctor soon stepped in and recognized the crescent moon wound for what it was, a sea urchin's quill. He immediately ordered my foot to be submerged in as hot of water as I could stand.

Instantly pain free, I thanked him and left immediately, embarrassed for thinking it was an emergency.

My wife and I waited over six hours in a Chicago hospital waiting for a prescription that took ten minutes to write. On another occasion, we spent ten minutes waiting in a West London hospital. On yet another, we spent around three hours waiting in an East London hospital.

It seems to me that a four-hour wait for non-emergency treatment in an emergency room is not unusual in any of these countries. The real scandal here is what fucking targets are doing to these systems.

I'm sure it also has to do with poppulation densities, the nearest large metropolitan area to me is Boston- 75 miles away. So though I live in the state capital there aren't that many people there.

It was one of them Chinese-Canadian tongs.

It amuses me that our big, bad gang-banger from New York probably was limited to spraypainting subway cars and shoplifting at the Quickie Mart while mild-mannered Scorp has been hanging with people who get into shootouts.

I was never a gang banger. never said I was. In my time, gangs were dying out. Hip hop and breakdancing was the new thing. Grafitti played right into both.

We don't have Quickie Marts.

Oh, no no. I got those two. That went under "poked and prodded" at the first hospital. I just figured no one really needed to hear about anything going near my ass.

And yeah, I got in early. That's why I didn't really mind that the surgery was scheduled for the next day in the middle of the afternoon. I mean, aside from the pain. I could at least understand why I was late in the queue.

My chief complaint was that it took them about ten hours to get me into a real hospital bed. I spent ten hours in the care of the emergency room staff. Small wonder it takes forever to get in there!

There are definately places in the U.S. where the system is a wreck too....I'm not an advocate for our current system, just worried about correcting in the wrong direction.

IIRC, in the past you have been a staunch defender of the universal health plan in the UK....if I am incorrect on that point, I apologize.

I waited almost eight hours in an emergency room with what turned out to be apendicitis, ended up on the operating table a few hours later. Why? Emergencies came in. It happens.