Star Trek XII?

You can call me whatever you wish. I tend to be consistent in my view that movies that just consist of action scenes without making sense, although they can be mildly entertaining, are entirely forgettable. And yes, it saddens me that I have no real desire to re-watch JJ Trek despite being a lifelong fan of Star Trek.

I don't see what's wrong with wanting an actual decent storyline that is true to the Star Trek universe to go along with the big-budget action scenes and special effects. I would also like for the characters to behave in a somewhat realistic way, like not throwing a crewmember off the ship when the brig is a far more sensible, reasonable and logical place to put them. I hate when movies to things like that because the writers can't figure out a sensible way to get from plot point to plot point. I hate it that much more when it's in a Star Trek movie.

Actually, it does make sense.

Spock is emotionally compromised in the extreme...his logic is failing him. He wants to be rid of Kirk and rid of him now.

The nonsense here is that no one tried to stop him and followed orders that must clearly be against regulations.

The key thing was that it is nonsense.

Fiction can be complete nonsense and still be entertaining.

If not, maybe there is a bit too much serious business attitude being applied to what amounts to really expensive games of make believe.

And that's what we have movies like Starship Troopers for.

Star Trek is supposed to be serious, though. And to be frank, the attitude that sci-fi can't be serious is the main reason behind Sci-Fi Ghetto. It's also why we can't have nice things.

Star Trek is supposed to be serious?

Have you watched Star Trek? There is plenty of nonsensical, less than serious stuff going on... even in the original series. That was part of the charm.

Abe Lincoln in space. Spock's Brain. Tribbles. Harry Mudd. Yeah, brother. Whales. Kirk riding Spock like a pony. Sulu running around with a sword. McCoy chasing a white rabbit. Trelane. The guy in the lizard suit. Kirk verbally outsmarting a computer. Catspaw. Jack The Ripper. Space Nazis! Space Romans. Space Indians. O.K. Corral....

The show was not always pure science fiction. Stuff like the Guardian Of Forever almost venture in the realm of fantasy. And there were plenty of plot holes and logical gaps in all the shows and in all the movies.

Even Star Trek II had some WTF moments.

Hey! That was serious. Deadly serious.

Fucking created slash, that did. BAAAAAAAAAAAAAASTAAAAAAAAAAARDDDDDS.

Oh, wait.

I'm not serious.

Never mind.

Yeah, I watched those. I also watched the rest of the franchise, and plenty of it was serious. But if you want to focus on the camp, I can see why the slapstick in Abrams Trek might have entertained you.

Just because Star Trek had all sorts of campy moments doesn't mean the series was not "serious" or did not "become serious".

that is one thing I've hated about modern Star Trek and modern Star Trek fans for the last couple of decades.

The attitude of "this is just television".

Because it has never been for me. It has always been the "hopeful technological future". A hope and belief that human progress would steadily go forward just as technology has.

I grew up in the 1970s when it seemed most of American society was rebelling against technology. Three Mile Island. Skylab. Various airliner crashes. et cetera.

And so it meant something getting to see a series where while humans might not have changed much, technology had changed and had been used to make humans lives better overall.

My point is that the new Trek movie is not really all that different from previous Trek outings in this regard.

It hasn't always been serious science fiction.

If you disliked the movie, that's fine... but to say it failed because it wasn't serious like the rest of Star Trek doesn't really make sense.

Serious subject matter does not always equal good movie. Look at Star Trek IV. It is generally considered to be one of the best Trek adventures and it was full of comedy. Star Trek: Nemesis was pretty serious yet disappointing to most fans.

For the record, I didn't think Abrams Trek was the best Trek ever... but it wasn't the worst either. It was enjoyable. It didn't make me think much, but neither did Star Trek III or First Contact but I enjoyed those movies fine.

Star Trek can be a lot of different things... comedy, drama, action, romance, hard science fiction, etc...

It is nice that it has influenced people in how they live their lives. I will agree that it promotes a message of hope for the future and that is very welcome.

But, it is still just a TV show and I can't help feeling that for a lot of people it's not so much about hope for the future but about feeling a void in their lives. Those fans who go to conventions every six weeks, have a whole wardrobe of uniform replicas, study starship plans, know klingonese fluently and so on, for me take it a little too far. They aren't doing anyone any harm and as long as they are happy then I suppose that is the main thing....but I just feel that there is so much to see and do in this world that to devote so much time to a TV show in so much detail may be drawing time and effort from perhaps more worthy (for want of a better word) pursuits.

Star Trek can mean a lot of different things to different people.

I've never cared much about the technology and space battles. It's why I don't get involved in arguments about ship design and how transporters work. It's neat stuff to think about, but the character stuff was always why I tuned in every week.

You say that, but a 79 episode show has now scope to be one thing one week and something entirely different another. A two hour movie does not, and if you are going to try and capture all of TOS then you have to squeeze a lot of different types of story into one. I think that they had quite a bit of trouble getting a TOS style message drama into the latest effort. I think that can be excused since the movie was about the crew coming together, but I, for one, expect some sort of social commentary in the next one.

It seems like this Abrams Trek debate comes up every month. So I'll just say this once to Dayton and Captain X.

It's fine to dislike the movie and its fine to explain why you dislike the movie. I even agree with you on many of these points.

But you seem incapable of believing that other Trek fans could actually like the movie. You claim that they are just jumping on the popular bandwagon or that they are deluding themselves. Or that they are stupid because they don't see what you see. Dayton just stated that he hates modern Trek fans. Well, sorry I wasn't born in 1950 or whenever.

Just because it doesn't fit your vision of Trek doesn't objectively make it a bad movie.
This is why you're getting attacked on all these threads. You're not just taking issue with the movie, but you're also taking issue with fans of the movie.

That's why this isn't a discussion.

Neither was Dayton. He is not old enough to remember TOS, that is if he was even alive.

You're right.

But the fact remains that as long as so many "modern Trek fans" (including those who frequent this forum) support "Abramstrek"....that means what we'll get is more "Abramstrek".

And I do not like that.

And what I like means one hell of a lot more to me that what faceless, nameless nonentities on the internet like.

What do you class as a "modern Trek fan" Dayton?

Like Black Dove for example.

An "Indiana Jones Trek Fan".

One who sees the show/movies as simply "popcorn entertainment".

But surely you realize that the Trek you want is never coming back? When was the last time you actually liked a new Star Trek episode or movie?

Whether it is Abrams or some other producer in the future, Trek is never again going to be marketed to an older crowd. Going forward, they are always going to try to attract new fans. That is the only way to keep the franchise going (something I don't personally care about. I would have been okay with Star Trek staying buried in the ground)

All you can do is hope for some video editing technology to fall into your lap so you can remix space battles and fleet engagements to your hearts content.

You assume that Star Trek was actually marketed to an older crowd.

I've always said that Star Trek should try to attract younger fans and made suggestions on how they could do it.

I don't suppose I should point out that series like Voyager, Enterprise, and movies like Nemesis were all supposed to "attract new fans" at one point or another.

Why else did so many Voyager episodes seem to feature Jeri Ryan's ass as a "special guest star"?

It's nice to have something outside of popcorn entertainment, i.e. drama with a little thought and depth.

But what I don't understand is this attitude that it's a crime to just like it for popcorn entertainment?

Yes, but clearly your tastes don't align with the tastes of younger fans. You said so yourself. So you can't have it both ways.

Those shows and movies mostly failed to attract new audiences, and I guess only time will tell if Abrams Trek can do it.

Although I have met many newer Voyager fans who didn't know much about classic Trek. Voyager seems to have picked a a small, loyal fan base, though nowhere near TOS or TNG levels. Not sure how active of a fan base it is, since I don't frequent Voyager fan boards. I see quite a few Voyager fans at Trek conventions though.

Abrams Trek, so far, seems to be doing a better job of attracting new fans than Voyager or Enterprise. But the next movie will test that notion.

Because of all the asses on the ship it was the nicest to watch?

But did she have a better ass than Marina Sirtis?

yup-Kirk even logs the violation of SF code.

Star Trek, like religion, is the process of creating God in the image of Man and convincing oneself it's the other way around...

Actually, I'm stuck trying to figure out this elite fan that Dayton and X think they are? Being high browed on Trek is kind of a silk purse out of a sow's ear paradox.

What folks like Dayton and Captain X don't realize is that back in the day, Star Trek was not considered "serious" science fiction. It was pretty much considered "sci-fi lite", hardly a notch above "Lost In Space".

Asimov initially turned up his nose, but his kids loved it, and he was eventually won over.