"The 1980's are calling to ask for their foreign policy back."

Ebeneezer Goode · Jun 24, 2023

That fizzled out. Time to put the popcorn away.

More questions though, and how does Putin and Russia come back from this with their partners? It's a humiliation.

A military force had to be negotiated away from Moscow, one without any air support, and the RuAF took losses of what they deployed.

And the negotiation looks to have mostly given what Prigozhin has demanded.

Take away the nukes, and you'd have a harder time invading Wales after a rugby match. At least the Taffy Army can still fight pissed, Russians flake like lepers in a sandstorm.

Ebeneezer Goode · Jun 24, 2023

Order2Chaos said: ↑

Did the military side with Prigozhin, or there was confusion paralysis when they took Rostov, and simply no one else left to fight when they marched on Moscow?
Click to expand...

They picked Friday evening knowing that pretty much the entire Russian military would be swimming in vodka.

Pickled Russians are even more terrified of naked flames than un-pickled ones, mostly as their cosplay of Johnny Storm would be brief and toasty.

RickDeckard · Jun 24, 2023

Right, so it's developing that he's been exiled to Belarus. And the end of Wagner? Which makes it look more like he didn't get the support he expected in the broader Russian military, and has now sold out his men...

shootER · Jun 24, 2023

Ancalagon · Jun 24, 2023

Ancalagon said: ↑

Listening to pro-Russian analysts if this is accurate what to look for is whether Wagner pulls out of Rostov and/or do changes happen at the MOD, specifically Shoigu and Gerasimov.
Click to expand...

There is video of Prigozhin shaking hands as he leaves Rostov.

This act is over.

Now to see what happens in the next.

Tuckerfan · Jun 24, 2023

Tuckerfan · Jun 24, 2023

Some Russians don’t appear to be happy that Putin is still in charge.

https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1672716909463195649?s=46&t=iYW3foyqIA6Tn8VWwn3nwQ

tafkats · Jun 24, 2023

Gotta love when one corrupt, murdering asshole turns on another.

Diacanu · Jun 24, 2023

It really is like Megatron vs Starscream.
All those high-falutin' English majors who spat on Saturday cartoon writers need to hand in an apology on a gold plaque.

Tuckerfan · Jun 24, 2023

Putin's Porpoises: Russia Doubles Dolphin Soldier Pens in Crimea to 'Counter Enemy Divers'

Dr. Krieg · Jun 24, 2023

So, Lukashenko brokered a deal for Prigozhin to go into exile.......in Belarus. Eugene will self defenistrate, shortly.

Tuckerfan · Jun 24, 2023

Dr. Krieg said: ↑

So, Lukashenko brokered a deal for Prigozhin to go into exile.......in Belarus. Eugene will self defenistrate, shortly.
Click to expand...

Putin has reportedly placed nukes in Belarus prior to this. My assumption is that Prigozhin believes that this will prevent Putin from moving major military forces against him, while he plans his next move. Prigozhin surely knows that he's put a target on his back by his actions. It doesn't matter if his goal was only to get Putin's attention so that there could be changes in the way the war is being fought, you've made a whole lot of people feel threatened and implied that Putin's picked the wrong people for the job. There's always consequences for such a thing.

Ancalagon · Jun 24, 2023

Ancalagon said: ↑

RickDeckard said: ↑

Demiurge said: ↑

RickDeckard said: ↑

If this does fizzle out like that, he'll want to steer away from tall buildings for a long time.
Click to expand...

I have a hard time understanding how he thinks he'll walk away from this one. Either he's really smart and has an opening somewhere else, or he's stupid as hell. At the moment, we don't have any reason to think it isn't the later.

Long term Putin can't let this happen without consequences.
Click to expand...

He looks terribly weakened though. To let Prigozhin scuttle back to Ukraine having bagged a load of concessions shows that he's perhaps dependent on Wagner there. The calculation may be that Putin doesn't have a long term.
Click to expand...

The world just learned that Russia has literally thrown everything at Ukraine.

There are no reserves.

The MOD couldn’t stop 20k infantry in SUVs from taking Moscow.

Look for Ukraine to get flooded with weapons now that we all know there is no need to hold back for future Russian aggression as the Russian army in Ukraine is THE ENTIRE RUSSIAN ARMY.

Now is the time to eliminate the threat.
Click to expand...

We are currently saying fall for GLSDBs (we actually have to ‘produce’ them as they are basically a combination of two obsolete systems).

In the mean time we need to supply ATACMs immediately. This is a golden opportunity to functionally wipe out the Muscovite military for a decade or more.

Troops don’t train themselves.

If the functional equivalent of the entire Orc military is in Ukraine then this is a once in a life time opportunity. We need to provide the Ukrainians every weapon they need to liquidate this threat.

A defanged Russia with united, armed and wary Europe will then allow us to completely pivot to the Indo-Pac.

shootER · Jun 24, 2023

Tuckerfan · Jun 24, 2023

U.S. spies learned in mid-June Prigozhin was plotting Russia uprising
Key point:

A key trigger for Prigozhin, officials said, was a June 10 Russian Defense Ministry order that all volunteer detachments would have to sign contracts with the government. Though the order did not mention Wagner by name, the implication was clear: a takeover of Prigozhin’s mercenary troops, who have proved essential to Russia’s military campaign in Ukraine and have helped secure some of its most notable tactical victories.

Ukrainian military officials also were watching Prigozhin after the June 10 announcement and increasingly believed that he might mobilize his forces against Moscow, said a senior Ukrainian official. Prigozhin had publicly protested the defense ministry’s order, and Ukrainian officials took seriously the possibility that he might move against Russian positions, this person said.
Click to expand...

It looks to me that there's a bit of a power struggle between Prigozhin and Putin. My guess is that both of them feel they need the other one alive for at least a little while longer while they shore up their ends. There's a chess game going on between the two of them, I feel. Neither one can wipe out the other and still maintain power, but they both know if they don't take out the other one, sooner or later, they'll wind up hanging with Saddam and Mussolini before it's all over with. So, maybe no big moves for a while, but the smaller moves will be worth paying attention to.

Tuckerfan · Jun 24, 2023

Russian talking head seems to be shitting himself at how close things came.

https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1672792066135412739?s=20

Tuckerfan · Jun 25, 2023

Something to keep in mind as you read the article

modern russian history consists of russia experts patiently explaining why something insane that people are talking about could never happen, followed by that exact thing happening
Click to expand...

One expert says that because Putin doesn't trust the internet, he doesn't understand social media.

Prigozhin’s Rebellion, Putin’s Fate, and Russia’s Future

Stephen Kotkin is a preeminent historian of Russia and the author of an acclaimed three-volume biography of Joseph Stalin (the third volume is forthcoming). Executive Editor Justin Vogt spoke with him earlier today about the dramatic events that have taken place in Russia in the last 24 hours. This conversation has been edited for clarity and length.

Yesterday, Yevgeny Prigozhin, the leader of the mercenary Wagner organization, launched a rebellion against the Russian military and a direct challenge to Russian President Vladmir Putin’s rule. As of this afternoon, it seems he has at least temporarily halted what appeared to be a march toward Moscow. It remains exceedingly difficult to know where events in Russia are headed. The situation is fluid, it is early, and we don’t want to jump to conclusions. Still: How could this have happened?

Prigozhin is improvising. Maybe he’s stopped the progress toward Moscow, but now what? Back to base camps, he says. OK: but he’s still in charge. You say coup, I say putsch. You say tomato, I say tomahto: let’s call the whole thing off—but just for now.

But he already succeeded in walking into Russia’s southern military headquarters, which is in downtown Rostov, right in the city. Wagner took the headquarters—and they took it not with guns but essentially with smartphones. The technology has made this a different ballgame. A TV production company is running Ukraine—and doing so with tremendous success, in wartime. Prigozhin’s instrument is Telegram. Putin is famously not on the Internet; he apparently doesn’t understand social media. Big mistake.

The dynamic here is potentially like a bank run. Think about when Silicon Valley Bank collapsed: that was a bank run powered by Twitter. If the Russian army starts to disintegrate in the field, it would amount to a Telegram-powered run on a political-military bank.

If that happens—an immense “if”—Prigozhin could be the gift Ukraine deserves: the crucial alternative to Putin that tests everyone’s loyalties inside Russia, reveals there is little to no actual support for the war among those fighting it on the Russian side, and even unravels things in Moscow. Ukraine’s counteroffensive in its first ten days has been probing weaknesses—alas, probing Ukraine’s own weaknesses, and finding them almost everywhere. But the drive might suddenly look more like slicing through butter if Russians lay down their arms, confused—or, demoralized, just head for home. Ukraine’s counteroffensive faced long, difficult odds; an internal threat to Putin was the one scenario that really favored the Ukrainians. And, well, here we are—or might be.

I have long been calling the Putin regime “hollow yet still strong.” It remained, and remains, viable as long as there is no political alternative. Now, we might see just how hollow the regime is. Putin has unwittingly launched a stress test of his own regime. He had already lost his mystique with the bungling of the aggression against Ukraine. Mystique, once lost, is near impossible to regain. The old cliché about the emperor and clothes. He still possesses enormous power, rooted in structures he built around himself, such as his Praetorian Guard, and those he unbuilt—his razing of the landscape of political possibilities besides himself, and severe repression to demobilize the populace.

There is one thing that all dictators properly fear: an alternative. And Putin, shockingly, after years and years of indefatigably suppressing alternatives, of promoting nonentities to his inner circle to ensure no one could threaten him, has allowed one to take shape. Pinch me.

Authoritarian regimes build up formidable military and security services, but these are purposely divided against themselves by the leader, to control them, to make them dependent on him. The leader deliberately gives them overlapping jurisdictions, heightens their inherent rivalries at every turn, and sits back and watches, usually with glee. But in this case, Putin has conjured up his own nemesis.

I’ve been saying for some time that the way to get Putin’s attention, to destabilize his regime, was to identify and recruit a defector from the inside, a Russian nationalist, a person who appeals to Putin’s base, but one who recognized the separate existence of a Ukrainian nation and state. Preferably a defector in uniform. And Putin has gifted us a candidate.

It’s early. We have to be careful not to indulge in wishful thinking. Coups in Russia have a terrible track record. Globally, almost every coup fails. The odds are long. But now, at least, there are odds.

But what are the alternatives to Putin?

It’s easy to dismiss Prigozhin as a lowlife, a commander of some death squads—militia figures who had been imprisoned for murder or rape and whom he personally recruited in penal colonies. He himself served a long prison term, by some accounts nine years. But he also in some ways represents an alternative that might have appeal: an authoritarian Russian nationalist who recognizes the war is a mistake and, whether fully intentionally or not, effectively ends the war, or at least the current active phase of it. That’s the one kind of person who could threaten Putin—and Putin did nothing as it unfolded in real time, on videos that the whole world watched.

Prigozhin might seem to be an unlikely contender. But in some ways his background is more suitable to the moment than Putin’s. Both are from St. Petersburg, but Prigozhin, despite serving time, is from the intelligentsia. His mother is an artist; she runs a gallery in London. He speaks better Russian than Putin. In terms of social class, he’s actually a level above Putin. And Prigozhin’s artistic side is visible in his videos. He cannot count (his math is terrible, another revelation of his videos). But look at his pithy and pointed vocabulary, his cadences, his ability to assume the role of tough guy, heart-on-the-sleeve Russian patriot, the truth teller who calls out the opportunists, the morons, and the thieves Putin has appointed.

To an extent, Prigozhin appears to have learned from [Russian dissident] Alexei Navalny’s superlative video performances. Navalny is still alive. He is in prison, facing renewed sentencing on trumped-up charges. As long as he’s alive, he too represents an alternative. Another Russian nationalist, of a very different stripe to be sure, but one who also says out loud that the war was a terrible idea and is hurting Russia.

Navalny is, in addition, the invaluable sanctions-lifting card for any would-be replacement for Putin, even if Navalny is not himself that replacement.

What can Putin do to turn things around?

Putin could use his powerful air force, which is still intact, to strike the Wagner forces. It appears the Russian air force has been bombing Wagner forces en route to Moscow. It would be a radical act to strike Prigozhin, holed up in Rostov, the principal military hub in Russia for Putin’s war in Ukraine. Imagine the symbolism of that. That said, an airstrike or a missile strike could end this would-be uprising quickly. And if he doesn’t use the air force decisively, and soon, Putin could lose control over the situation.

Prigozhin does not have the heavy weapons to take Moscow militarily. He has no air force—unless elements of the Russian air force defect to him. He could take Moscow, or at least enter it, for talks or negotiations, but only if he does not meet opposition. That would require the Russian military—soldiers and officers—to choose not to fire on his men and on him. It would mean the FSB (Federal Security Service) decided, or some elements in it decided, to refrain from fulfilling orders of shoot to kill. This seems unlikely, to be honest. The fact that we are even discussing it, however, means it is not zero probability.

If Putin does use the air force against Prigozhin, it could also make matters worse for Putin. He’d be bombing his own forces. Rostov is Russia, not Ukraine. There are Russian kids there. The military HQ is smack in the downtown of a populous city, and Russian soldiers and officers are inside the HQ, not just Wagner mercenaries—who also have mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers. Putin wouldn’t be able to censor such an act, because the whole point would be to demonstrate that he is in charge.

We should also be concerned that Putin could do something radical to distract attention and regain the upper hand. He blew up the Kakhovka dam. What about the Zaporizhzhia nuclear plant? Putin could have it blow up and irradiate Ukraine. Much of Ukraine would potentially become uninhabitable for an extended period: radiation is a whole lot worse than contaminated water or the mines Russia has been seeding all over the large swaths of Ukraine they occupy. Ukrainian special forces have tried and failed, multiple times, to cross the Dnieper River and take control of the nuclear power plant.

These are some dire scenarios.

Armageddon not averted but delayed? Armageddon rescheduled? I can scarcely believe I’m mouthing such words. Putin has recently reiterated that government policy on the use of nuclear weapons is in a scenario when the existence of the Russian state is threatened. He equates his personal rule with that of the Russian state.

We do not want to panic or induce panic, of course. I don’t know if the statement of Putin’s regime that he has deployed tactical nuclear weapons to Belarus is real. He only needs to have deployed one. If a tactical nuke is fired from Belarus, is there a case for retaliation against Russia?

Let’s remember: when Putin attempted to assassinate what he deemed traitors in the United Kingdom, he did not have his hit squads use pistols to shoot them or dump arsenic in their tea. He had them use polonium, Novichok. That, too, was a message—not just the fact that he would kill traitors wherever they were, but the “how.”

No matter how Putin responds, it seems like he’s at risk of losing his grasp.

This could peter out quickly. Putin is a survivor. A sense that the Russian state is at risk could rally the various rivalrous factions around him.

Putin, in his video response to Prigozhin, alluded to a moment of danger like 1917—that was when Lavr Kornilov, the commander in chief of Russian forces in World War I, sent forces to the capital, St. Petersburg, to restore order, but only succeeded in further disintegrating the political home front.

Or think of the attempt not long thereafter by Alexander Kerensky to preempt an attempted coup by sending forces to shut down and arrest the Bolsheviks, setting in motion the very coup that Kerensky and his Provisional Government wanted to forestall. The Russian Empire dissolved. If the hard men agree, if they perceive a moment of equivalent danger, not just for Putin but for Russia, they could save him to save the country.

What or who should we be paying attention to know where things are heading?

Watch the security council chief, Nikolai Patrushev. Beijing has not commented yet; now might be the moment for Xi Jinping to decide he does, in fact, have no alternative to a quasi-puppet regime in Moscow. If Putin is going down, Xi might want to preempt less desirable options, like a Western-friendly one. Profound ramifications, potentially, for China.

Watch the Chechen warlord Ramzan Kadyrov, who like Prigozhin runs a large private militia. He professes absolutely loyalty to Putin, but he could help spark a North Caucasus problem. Let’s see if Kadyrov, who has serious health issues, stays in or near Grozny or if he appears elsewhere to play a part. His men are involved in suppressing Wagner, it seems. Kadyrov’s ambitions, incredibly, have been in Moscow. But triggering the North Caucasus could have wide ramifications—for the South Caucasus, for the Levant, for Russia.

Watch Belarus, too. The erratic president, Alexander Lukashenko, might decide the writing is on the wall and suddenly decide to flee, setting off further repercussions. Putin could even try to remove and replace him. And who knows? Lukashenko could even switch sides and turn westward.

Has what’s happened in the past 24 hours changed your view of Putin?

Here’s the bottom line: even if it is now snuffed out, an alternative was allowed to arise. All this unfolded in real time, on video, over months and months. Putin did not intervene earlier and allowed things to get to this point. Stunning. Either he has descended into utter incompetence or he has less operational control than his media machine has been letting on. Or both. I expected him to be better at Authoritarianism 101. I expected him to understand this was the one threat in real time. I expected him to end the games, end the pitting of rivals against each other to control them, because it had become dangerous to him personally. I overestimated him. I would not want to make the opposite mistake and underestimate him now, though.

What is the right historical parallel here?

I already mentioned 1917, because Putin himself evoked it and not the Soviet implosion of 1991, which he lived through and has reflected on often. But the remarkable aspect for me is not just the eerie sense of the distant past that appears so close, yet again, but the tech and media revolution. I look at that Ukrainian TV production company running this war, I look at the production of the January 6 hearings here in the United States—Liz Cheney’s hearings were run by a TV producer, with powerful effect—and I think, “This is how you do national security most effectively now: with smartphones, videos, memes.” All those written and emailed policy briefs, all those meetings of principals and deputies form the sprawling national security bureaucracies, all that spying and cloak and dagger—and, boom: Telegram and a pair of thumbs.

Can Ukraine take advantage of this?

I was not among those persuaded that Ukraine was going to take a bunch of guys who worked in 7-11 equivalents, train them for a few months on how to use the world’s most sophisticated weapons, and send them into frontal assaults against some of the most heavily fortified positions you’re ever going to see. That is, mount an offensive where the enemy knows exactly where you’re going to strike, and has more than enough time to prepare and has prepared, doggedly.

On the Ukrainian side you do not have very large numbers of well-trained troops skilled in combined arms operations, one of the hardest things for any military, but mostly civilians who, for all their courage and will, through no fault of their own have, well, been handed a very tough assignment. Not all of Ukraine’s newly trained brigades have been sent into action. Still, it has not been impressive so far. Yes, Ukraine has no F-16s yet; they are supposed to be coming. But how aviators might fly combat missions with them successfully into the teeth of Russia’s S-300s and S-400s, firing from Russian soil, is beyond me.

We’ve been watching Russian forces in defense learn and adapt, use helicopter gunships very effectively. This should not have but appears to have surprised some analysts. Russian mines have been plentiful and deadly, and used with some sophistication and in immense quantity.

But what if Prigozhin manages to disintegrate the Russian army? What if he manages to destabilize the regime in Moscow? What if, even if he is put down, destabilization and disintegration results, in some form, to some degree, anyway? This could be the gift that Ukraine deserves, the gift that their valor and sacrifice has more than earned. This scenario—the Russian nationalist who abjures the war—is Ukraine’s quickest path to some sort of victory. Then, of course, the question of Crimea would jump to front and center.

What options do Washington and its NATO allies have? Just wait and see?

If Washington, NATO, Ukraine, are seen as backing Prigozhin, in cahoots with Prigozhin, it could have the effect of undermining whatever chances he might have to catalyze an end to the aggression. So the response has been properly to just let it unfold, with a bit of tongue in cheek commentary out of Kyiv, but otherwise bite-the-tongue restraint in D.C. and Brussels.

Behind the scenes, of course, it’s 24/7 very close monitoring of everything and anything, and intense consultation. Twelve hours, 24 hours, 36 hours, of nail biting. But after all the Sturm und Drang, we could be right back where we started: Putin in power in Moscow and Ukraine facing a counteroffensive that will be very difficult to pull off.
Click to expand...

steve2^4 · Jun 25, 2023

Dr. Krieg said: ↑

So, Lukashenko brokered a deal for Prigozhin to go into exile.......in Belarus. Eugene will self defenistrate, shortly.
Click to expand...

Or live happily ever after with the payoff he received.

Tuckerfan · Jun 25, 2023

UKRAINE BLOCKS JOURNALISTS FROM FRONT LINES WITH ESCALATING CENSORSHIP

14thDoctor · Jun 25, 2023

Tuckerfan said: ↑

UKRAINE BLOCKS JOURNALISTS FROM FRONT LINES WITH ESCALATING CENSORSHIP

Click to expand...

From what I've read this war is the biggest military conflict in Europe since WWI and WWII, and during WWI and WWII there was a shitload of censorship on both sides. There's a reason the Spanish flu was called the Spanish flu in the first place.

If there's something else I'm missing I'm happy to reevaluate, but it seems like censorship is more or less a valid part of fighting any large scale war. I don't even begrudge the Russian government for censoring information from the battlefield on their end.

Tuckerfan · Jun 25, 2023

14thDoctor said: ↑

Tuckerfan said: ↑

UKRAINE BLOCKS JOURNALISTS FROM FRONT LINES WITH ESCALATING CENSORSHIP

Click to expand...

From what I've read this war is the biggest military conflict in Europe since WWI and WWII, and during WWI and WWII there was a shitload of censorship on both sides. There's a reason the Spanish flu was called the Spanish flu in the first place.

If there's something else I'm missing I'm happy to reevaluate, but it seems like censorship is more or less a valid part of fighting any large scale war. I don't even begrudge the Russian government for censoring information from the battlefield on their end.
Click to expand...

According to the article, US reporters embedded in troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Ukrainians are more restrictive than the US was when it was fighting it’s most recent wars.

The reasons for it seem less to do with reasons of security and more that they don’t have any idea of how to do it.

Tuckerfan · Jun 26, 2023

Russian state TV

A lot of change has happened in Russia due to rebellion. Usually after the leadership gets the country into a war they can not win. They seem to forget how the treatment of their soldiers and corruption by the elite causes the rebellion.
Click to expand...

https://twitter.com/BrennanRapport/status/1673185308442247168?s=20

They are making comparisons Putin would not like.

Bickendan · Jun 26, 2023

/me wonders if I'm going to have to get a Cliff's Notes of Swan Lake soon...

Fuckit, I should just order an orchestral study score from a sheet music outfit.

Bailey · Jun 26, 2023

Tuckerfan said: ↑

14thDoctor said: ↑

Tuckerfan said: ↑

UKRAINE BLOCKS JOURNALISTS FROM FRONT LINES WITH ESCALATING CENSORSHIP

Click to expand...

From what I've read this war is the biggest military conflict in Europe since WWI and WWII, and during WWI and WWII there was a shitload of censorship on both sides. There's a reason the Spanish flu was called the Spanish flu in the first place.

If there's something else I'm missing I'm happy to reevaluate, but it seems like censorship is more or less a valid part of fighting any large scale war. I don't even begrudge the Russian government for censoring information from the battlefield on their end.
Click to expand...

According to the article, US reporters embedded in troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Ukrainians are more restrictive than the US was when it was fighting it’s most recent wars.

The reasons for it seem less to do with reasons of security and more that they don’t have any idea of how to do it.
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between the situations.

The US started those wars, and embedded reporters in no small part as a source of propaganda to sell the wars to the US audience at home.

Ukraine is fighting a war for its survival.

Tererune · Jun 26, 2023

I jut hope for the russian and Ukrainian people that all this wat just stops and they can rebuild and go on. It is just such a waste, which is why I hate that american terrorists in the republican party are flirting with a civil war. It is just a tragedy for the people.

Tuckerfan · Jun 26, 2023

Bailey said: ↑

Tuckerfan said: ↑

14thDoctor said: ↑

Tuckerfan said: ↑

UKRAINE BLOCKS JOURNALISTS FROM FRONT LINES WITH ESCALATING CENSORSHIP

Click to expand...

From what I've read this war is the biggest military conflict in Europe since WWI and WWII, and during WWI and WWII there was a shitload of censorship on both sides. There's a reason the Spanish flu was called the Spanish flu in the first place.

If there's something else I'm missing I'm happy to reevaluate, but it seems like censorship is more or less a valid part of fighting any large scale war. I don't even begrudge the Russian government for censoring information from the battlefield on their end.
Click to expand...

According to the article, US reporters embedded in troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan, the Ukrainians are more restrictive than the US was when it was fighting it’s most recent wars.

The reasons for it seem less to do with reasons of security and more that they don’t have any idea of how to do it.
Click to expand...

There's a big difference between the situations.

The US started those wars, and embedded reporters in no small part as a source of propaganda to sell the wars to the US audience at home.

Ukraine is fighting a war for its survival.
Click to expand...

Ayup. And it's not really fair to try to compare things to what happened in WWII since communication is so much faster now. That's why I put the popcorn in the response. This is the kind of stuff I don't know enough about to even spitball a guess. Because I don't know who's in the wrong here. I mean, holy fuck, we can both agree that if Ukrainian forces stumble upon something that looks like a death camp, we want all that shit documented and out there as fast as possible. And I think that we can both agree that we don't envy the people who'd have to be sent to document those things, no matter how important we might think it needs to be done. Because they're getting the worst humanity has to offer in both Smell-O-Vision and Technicolor, that's going to fuck them up for life.

Additionally, we realize if the wrong bit of information gets out, a whole lotta Ukrainians could die. Not a great place to be in and I don't know what's the right call. I've never been a journalist and I've never been in combat, so I'm loathe to throw out a critique too serious here. I would hope that after the war there is a serious analysis by Ukraine as to what they might have done better. Granted, the military of any nation is not one to admit that they screwed up, but perhaps there will be enough objective comments made that the necessary improvements can be made.

Tuckerfan · Jun 26, 2023

https://thehill.com/policy/internat...zhin-should-be-very-concerned-about-his-life/

Demiurge · Jun 27, 2023

Ukraine has crossed the Dnipro. And as the reservoir dries out and the sun bakes the mud in the area formerly underwater due to the blown dam, Ukraine will have dozens of options of crossing that line.

As usual for Russia, short term thinking leading to long term losses. But then, they are just playing for time, hoping that Trump can ride in and save them.

Demiurge · Jun 27, 2023

Lukashenko says he's talked Putin out of assassinating Prizoghin.

Has anyone told Putin that?

https://www.businessinsider.com/pri...says-talked-putin-out-of-assassination-2023-6

Though perhaps Belarus makes sense. Evidently the tallest hotel in Minsk has no windows.

Tuckerfan · Jun 28, 2023

https://twitter.com/zelenskyyua/status/1673973213175459842?s=46&t=iYW3foyqIA6Tn8VWwn3nwQ

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