The Falcon and the Winter Soldier

Breaking this off into its own thread, as the show debut is imminent.

You know, I'm looking forward to it, but in a way, I wish there was more of a break between WandaVision and it. I assume this is going to be a very straightforward adventure comedy with Sam and Bucky grudgingly coming to appreaciate each other and accepting that they can have a relationship beyond "Who's Cap's real BFF?"

Really looks good. It's a good thing too because I was wondering what I would do after WandaVision was over.

Any info on how many episodes or what their plans are going forward?

Looks like these shows are all currently being thought of as 1 season. F&WS is slated to run for 6 episodes.

It was originally supposed to air back in August 2020, but you know, global pandemic and all.

So... anybody see the first episode yet?

Great action sequences but I have to admit being a little underwhelmed. Still sticking with it because I really did NOT like the first 2 episodes of WandaVision but grew to appreciate them as the season progressed.

It was definitely a "set up the story" episode.

Guy playing John Walker / NuCap looks kinda dopey. Doesn't strike me as the John Walker / Super Patriot from the comics.

It was a little boring. Bucky's story was good, didn't care about the Falcon family stuff. I liked hearing about how things were during the Blip, with the Flag Smashes arising and all that.

The first episode was definitely inconsistent but set up some good storylines that hopefully pay off as the series progresses. I particularly liked the reveal at the end.

But here's the problem I'm beginning to have with the whole MCU post-Endgame:

These heroes saved the universe.

Let me repeat that:

These. Heroes. Saved. The. Fucking. Universe.

Sam Wilson shouldn't be sitting in a bank begging for a loan, fer crissakes.

I get that the writers are trying to make the heroes relatable (i.e., Peter Parker on a school trip to Italy with a teenage crush) but it simply defies credibility. WandaVision dealt with the Endgame aftermath without getting into the "life is back to normal" bullshit, but then again the wholes series was pretty trippy.

Still, I'm looking forward to seeing how the Falcon and Winter Soldier plays out.

I sort of agree and disagree at the same time.

As far as we know, Sam had been an Air Force vet who had been just living a middle class lifestyle when we met him in CA2: Winter Soldier. He is on the run between CA3 and Infinity War, then dead for 5 years. So he probably doesn't have much in the way of assets.

Presumably he could do a bunch of things to get the sort of money I assume we're talking about (less than $500k). Off the top of my head:
1. Ask Pepper or any of the other Avengers with money for a loan/gift
2. Do endorsements.
3. Do private contracting

The show could have better established why Sam doesn't do these things.

But it's hard to get away from the real reason: the show wanted to float the notion that despite being a galaxy-saving superhero, Sam can't get the money he wants from a bank because he's a black man. Which, I am mixed about as well. Having the Falcon as a customer and being able to advertise that fact is probably worth more than whatever amount Sam and his sister are seeking.

I'm not aware of any comic that's ever effectively dealt with the economics of being a superhero, but I admit I haven't really read any comics in over 30 years so I'm probably wrong.

Agreed on the point about the race issue but I'm still having a really tough time as to why, for example, Stark Industries doesn't just fund all the Avengers.

People with extraordinary abilities and/or extraordinary tech should probably be kept happy.

I feel like the Amazing SpiderMan comics dealt with economics of being a superhero... last time I read them were in the late 80’s-early 90’s. Peter Parker frequently posed for pics as SpiderMan in order to pay the rent for his 1 br apartment. There were times he neglected to do laundry and had to use alternate costumes. That was such an awesome comic.

I never read many Falcon or Captain America comics but I feel like I’m detecting some “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps” bullshit that some people love to see in black characters. This may be an arc or theme in Sam Wilson. It’s ok if that’s the case AFAIC, but for the most part it’s a myth that some people like to see in themselves without taking into account generational wealth attainment, FHA loans, redlining, discrimination, etc.

I just can't reconcile Falcon triumphantly emerging from Dr. Strange's portal ("on your left") in Endgame, with him sitting in a bank begging for a loan for his sister's business.

This:



Versus this:

In the comics, Tony set up a foundation that gave Avengers a stipend for living expenses, and people could live full-time at Avengers Mansion.

In the MCU, there was an Avengers compound upstate where it seemed at least Wanda and Vision lived full-time for at least a bit. It also would seem that Vision got paid something for work as an Avenger.

So this first episode seems to be the first time that it was clearly said Avengers aren't paid just for being Avengers.

I didn't follow Falcon all that closely growing up. I rea the miniseries he had in the 1980s but literally remember nothing from it other than it existed. I think that the writers have a fairly blank slate that they can work with especially since they had to change his origin from the comics. (IIRC, it was some convoluted BS involving mind control and the Red Skull).

Imagine being approached by Vision for a life insurance policy. How do you even . . . ?

I already like it far better than WandaVision.

Honestly, this part is working for me. It sure seems like that the point is already that pulling yourself up isn't going to work here, and this is necessary for Sam's character growth. Sam's sister knows and is done with it. Sam hasn't figured it out yet.

It's also believable to me that this is the position he starts from - ex-military types have the concept of self-reliance drummed into them pretty hard.

My guess is they will eventually finish the arc where Sam becomes the next Captain America, but this is essential to his understanding of America.

Anyway, that's what I'm hoping for.

Really?

To me, WandaVision had so much heart and it took me some time to appreciate it. What do you see in this so far that pulls you in?

Superheroes doing superhero shit.

"Black superheroes have to worry about money" is a longstanding Marvel movie trope, it seems. Back in the first Blade movie, there's a scene where he takes the money from a henchmans wallet after defeating him. When his love interest complains, he says "How do you think we fund this little operation? We're not exactly the March of Dimes."

That was probably one of the first times I ever thought to myself "Holy shit, this feels racist."

I think that Blade was more the exception than the rule when it comes to Black Marvel movie characters and money.

Storm in the X-Men was chilling at the mansion and presumably did alright. Or at least, she never had to pick someone's pocket after beating them.

Rhodey was a colonel in the Air Force, which means if MCU military pay corresponds to real world pay he was making $80k at a minimum, probably more for his special role in babysitting Tony. And of course Tony could drop him a random mil whenever he wanted.

Sam seemingly had a middle class lifestyle going in Winter Soldier, but I guess years on the run and being dead are going to put a strain on the finances.

Michael B. Jordan Johnny Storm in Fant4stic presumably was doing alright too.

And of course, T'Challa is probably a trillionaire because of all the vibranium he's sitting on top of.

Don't get me wrong...I loved WandaVision.

But there is something to be said for a series that is dealing with you straight up, that isn't teasing/trolling its fans, that is more action-packed/

Also in a vacuum, I think that Sam and Bucky are more interesting characters that Wanda and Vision.

Though, in the comics, she WAS a pickpocket prior to meeting Xavier.

Well... for the record, one of the things that make me prefer Marvel characters over DC is how they weave real world type consequences into their heroes. Someone once posted that The Amazing Spider-Man was really about Peter Parker and how him being Spider-Man complicated his life. It's those kind of details that draws me in. It's the loss of everyone in Wanda Maximoff's life and how a super-powered person deals with it that gets to me. And that's why I'm willing to give the ludicrous notion that Sam Wilson can't get a SBA loan a little bit of lee-way to see where it goes. I wonder if Marvel will have the balls to approach the racism angle around Sam Wilson being the chosen successor to Captain America but I hope they do. IIRC, there was a brief stint in the comics with a Black Cap but I never read it. There was some fanboy backlash too.

And not for nothing, this sort of story elements often extends to their villains. It sort of illustrates the thin line that motivations can draw between choices and actions. Dr. Doom comes to mind.

Same. I didn't start reading Marvel until comics until ... into my teen years - probably for the same reasons.

But, Marvel (and Blade) weren't the only stories to show how the hero also needs money in the real world. The entire series of Angel talks about just that. Granted, it's years after Blade and most Marvel comics. But, David Banner back in the '70s constantly had to take low wage paying jobs because he couldn't commit to a long term position that would/could ensure higher pay.

One other aspect to the finance issue is the fact this is post blip, it's not our reality. They haven't dealt with it in detail, but clearly half of the population of the world disappearing would devastate economies. And then you have the mental health crisis and no doubt religious hysteria.

Guess problematic finances seems logical to me in this context.

Yea, I wondered about that as well and it wasn't addressed in ... which movie was it?

But, I guess, addressing those ramifications are not necessary to the enjoyment of the movie.

I really wish that Disney+ would do a minseries set between the Snap and the Blip just talking about how screwed up things would be on basically every level. Psychologically, politically, socially, etc.

It would likely never happen because it would be so radically different and non-superheroey. But still...