The irrational fears of Americans of "Socialism"

Ignore the fact that Muad thinks everyone on welfare is a deadbeat? Given the number of times he's reiterated his belief, it is pretty hard to ignore.

Ignore the fact that you refuse to accept that there are a lot of people on welfare that just don't want to get a job.

Also, Muad has said many times that he has no problem with people in need being on welfare. He has a problem with people who are capable of getting a job being on welfare.

A key difference that you ALWAYS ignore.

I disagree. I think we are socialist in many ways; we just refuse to admit it.

The rest I agree with.

Read down.

As long as the limosine liberals, the Hollywood elites, the Michael Moores and the US congress make the same as burger flippers IE $7.75 per hour, go for it.

Largely, but then you'll get some sociopathic sonsofbitches that don't get it.
And they fuck things up just enough.

Like CEOs with their golden bonuses you paid for?

Like?

We've been on that road at lest since LBJ.

Ignoring the fact that those bonuses were signed in a contract long before the US government bought their company out, yes.....like all the fuckers who got bailed out.

Well for one, like when ISPs turn over private information to the government without a court order.

You did not seem to have read my post and just picked the paragraph which fits your worldview. As I said, there are countries here in Europe which do better than the USA in almost every aspect, even though they can afford great and expensive social systems. Which leads to less crime and better social cohesion, as a positive side effect.

No, a person who works has more money in his pockets than a person who is out of job. In Switzerland, the difference is 30 percent. When you lose your job here because your firm has a hard time, you get 70 percent of your former salary. But if you go not job-hunting, you will get far less after a while. When you lose your job because you fuck up, you will get nothing for three months and you will have to live from your savings until there is nothing left and then go the social assistance office. And you get only enough money from them that you do not have to starve.

Your views about our social systems seem to be completely warped.

As I said, "socialist" countries like the scandinavian ones are proof that "socialism" doesn't kill the work ethic.

I think we should implement the part of socialism that involves collective farms and find a job their for people who are not gainfully employed in the private sector. I think this would solve two problems. It would provide employment for those who truly need it, and I think a surprising number of people would suddenly find private sector employment rather than be sent to the farms.

So, what label would you give this? "Socialist", "fascist", "commie-Nazi"?

Corporate fascism.

But continue bitching about people's irrational fears. That will fix the problem.

Your ass is still here, Pedro.

Or taking a business away from it's rightfull owners without just compensation. Or giving an executive order in order to bypass congress.
Or abusing eminent domain to put up a business to gain more tax money.

Here you get 60% of you former salary if you get laid off. I think you can draw that for up to a year now, but it used to be 6 months. Here if you get fired, you can request a hearing and might only have to wait a month or so before drawing payments.
If someone is starving here its because they want to starve, for the most part. I don't think you understand the US either.

Corruption.

There you go.

The economy has responsibility, too. The businesses should try to integrate people who have been away from the economic circuit for years. Of course these people cannot be productive from the first day on, but especially these people can become good workers, because the get their self-confidence back. They just need some time. But in the end, one welfare case less is positive for everybody involved. Only a small minority is happy to be a welfare case. Of course, Muad Dib will disagree, however...

Bashing welfare cases as leeches and subhuman lifeforms will not motivate them to find a job and become independent again. Au contraire, these people tend to give themselves up and watch TV the whole day. Because they are ashamed of themselves. It's a lose-lose situation.

Making money is the first thing for every business, no doubt about that. But the firms have a social responsibility, too. Yeah, I am a socialist...

Possibly because I don't know enough people on welfare to make an informed decision. I'm not a social worker; I don't have access to that information about strangers, and the few people I've known personally who applied for welfare were in dire circumstances at the time, and as soon as they got back on their feet, they got off welfare.

So, I have to assume that either (A) there are lots of people on WF who personally know of lots of people on welfare who don't deserve it or (B) you all are just repeating one of the Right's favorite talking points without any substance.

He also keeps saying stupid shit like this:

When he stops saying stupid shit, I'll give his true sentiments more credence.

If they provide so much in your country to get people working then the unemployment rate should be much lower than here. Is it that much lower?

I do disagree.

Case in point: how many cigarette smokers do you know? Now, how many of the smokers do you know say they would like to quit? I'd be willing to bet almost every one of them. Well, why are they still smoking?

I'd say almost everyone on welfare would like to get off of it, but they want to get off welfare by winning the Powerball (lottery), not by hard work.

In our system, there is no incentive to get off. There are no limits, no deadlines.

Yes, it is. It's below 4 percent and sinking. This is still a horribly high unemployment rate for my country, however! But compared to your rate, these are peanuts.

You were correct in your last post. I don't know much about your welfare system. Thx for informing me. You were wrong when you mentioned that our European "socialism" automatically leads to economical collapse because nobody feels the need to work anymore. I was wrong thinking that the American social system is more or less socialdarwinistic and people who lose their jobs are left to starve. We both have our beloved clichés.

Seeing as I'm dead on, then you can go ahead and give credence.

But that goes back to the indoctrination.

Communism believed in a parasitic overclass, so to contrast that, the right in this country shoveled propaganda about the parasitic underclass, and this is why the "welfare leech", shit only ever applies to the poor, and barely ever mention of corporate welfare, and you have to prod to get it.

Well, they're both fucking wrong, the fucking entropy is everywhere, but rigid black & white worldviews FEEL better, so they sell better, and this is the discourse you get from it.

I have almost no experience with mainland Europe. I did live in the UK a while and I thought the overall standard of living there was less than the US. Old folks forced to ride bicycles in the cold and rain because they could not afford a car and things like that. Here, most people on welfare are driving better cars than I have.

If this is the case, then I understand your anger completely and your system is indeed completely fucked.

@Muad Dib: Of course you disagree! Perpaps you have a job where you have to deal with welfare cases on a regular basis and know their mindset better then I do.

But let's take Diacanu for example (who is not a welfare case, I know, but lives off his parents and gets a lot of shit for it here on WF): He may be a grumpy dude and a cynic, but he is certainly not dumb. Let this guy work for a local newspaper. I'm sure he has got the brains for it. His co-workers may not like him in the beginning (if his persona here is resembling his real life behaviour in any way...), but if he survives the first weeks, they will learn to respect him and his self-confidence will go up. And after that, he will be self-sustaining. But I am afraid that in our modern economy, only streamlined people have a chance to get a job.

Edit: Thousand posts on WF!