The irrational fears of Americans of "Socialism"

Indeed, I do have such a job and I see it every day.

Granted, Diacanu does not leech off of the taxpayers; he leeches off of his parents and if they're OK with it then it's none of my affair.

If Diacanu wants to go to work for a newspaper or whoever, he's certainly free to do so. I don't know how old he is, but I suspect that his age and duration out of the workforce may be strikes against him.

Dickhead is a smart guy?



I think hell just froze over.

Skin always finds this particular claim highly amusing. If it's never been tried and has never existed, then it never will exist, never will be tried, and y'all who crow about it might as well be going to church, because what you believe in is no less farcical than anything you'll be told there.

Whereas Jan likes to confuse "social services" with full-blown Socialism, others can only reply to the human rights abuses and/or eventual collapses of Socialism and points Left of it by claiming that these systems were anything but what they really were. Like Skin said, the reason for that is simple -- every good con game has to first convince the smart patsy that it's nothing at all like those con games he knows all about.

Of course these would be "good" reasons against appointing him. That's my point. They aren't really good reasons. People who have "dropped out of the system" for whatever reason should be given a second chance. We're in this together, for fuck's sake.

Some people do not suceed at first. But when they get enough support, they can become part of the working class, too. And from my experience, especially the "hopeless cases" are very hard-working when they feel that they are respected and their enthusiasm is appreciated. Even if they "only" work at McD.

I'm with Ted Nugent on this one: "There are no bad jobs." Perhaps you guys should stop looking down on people who have "shitty" jobs without prestige and stop insulting these people. Because this may be a reason that welfare people prefer to stay at home instead of flipping burgers. Every job has its dignity. A job is a job.

I'm intrigued by how you know this. Conducted a survey? Do tell.

I dunno how the hell it is in Norway, but I worked hard at my crappy jobs IN SPITE of that no one in middle-management in retail appreciates or gives a fuck about you.

Seen it with my own eyes?

When I went to high school kids of Native parents who everyone knew was on welfare drove the nicest cars of anyone in school.

Course, it wasn't politically correct to say anything, so we didn't. But everyone saw it.

Well, it's the "everyone knew" factor that intrigues me. Where I grew up, there were two things people never talked about...sex, and money, not necessarily in that order.

Now, I'm guessing you saw their parents hanging around out of work and *assumed* they were on welfare...which they might very well have been. But their income could have come from any number of sources - disability, pensions, land leases, etc. - including or excluding welfare.

So it's a question of (A) what their sources were and (B) whether or not they were "deserved." I'm not sure any of us knows that on the basis of casual acquaintance.

Then there's the "some bad apples" theory combined with the "baby/bathwater" theory. And, lastly, the overlap between people who freak out over "welfare cheats" but develop convoluted rationalizations for corporate welfare. Fascinating...

Norway???

Yes, it needs a lot of luck to find a good employer. No doubt about that. Most employers do not get it that when they show respect towards their appointees and drop a praise from time to time, it is good for business...

Most of the bosses I had were good persons, however. I have no reason to complain. They had social skills. I'm sad to hear that you made such bad experiences with your seniors.

Because I can drive through the local welfare projects and my 95 Kia is the oldest car in there, survey done

How many Native Americans do you know with pensions, disability or land leases????
Come on Garamet, you're more intelligent than that.
I hope.

Smart enough to wait for you to elaborate on Post #6.

This thread is a complete failure. It all comes down to "fucking social parasites!" vs. "the business world is so unfair!" There is a middle ground, guys and gals...

It's the red room. wadja expect.

Of course there is. But as you pointed out in that other thread, this board is dominated by a faction that expends a great deal of its energy about the former. It's enough to make you wonder if it's the main topic of conversation when they're offline.

Can you picture the family barbecue?

Spouse: Hon, are the steaks done yet?
WFer: Fuckin' welfare parasites are eating steak on My Tax Dollars!!!!
Spouse: Um, okay. Can you run out and get some more beer? I think we're running low.
WFer: Sure, but don't wait up for me. I'll be standing on line behind all the fucking welfare parasites with their food stamps...

No wonder the American lifespan is shorter than that in so many other Western nations...

Uh....no.

Granted some jobs, for whatever reason, just don't work out. Been there, done that.

We were discussing a poster here the other day who had quit his job and the point was made that you shouldn't burn bridges behind you. In Diacanu's case, he doesn't have any bridges to burn.

Employers look at work records to determine whether they think you will be dependable. If you're not dependable, then they'd rather not waste time on you. They look at things like how often you've changed jobs and your established work history. In other words, have you been working?

I went for an interview a few years ago and the interviewer asked me why I hadn't worked for 2 years from 1986-1988. I had to point out to her on my resume that I was back in college full-time getting my nursing degree.

Its in the American spirit to be distrusting of any government and its power. One has only to read the constitution and its amendments to see this. It does not spell out the power of government but the limitations of it. Most of the founding fathers mistrusted the power of government. Liberty, the freedom from a government yoke was all it was about. Taxation is the real power of any government and that should be limited. Look at the idiots in our congress and all the endless government droids. Do they really know or care what is best for you and how a portion of you income is best spent? What has a government bureau done better than the private sector?

And there they are, elected by you under the terms of the republic established by the Founding Fathers, and instead of holding them accountable for their antics, you're getting sidetracked worrying about some nonexistent "socialism." Pretty bizarre, that.

Is there any better way to find out if an employee is dependable by letting him work for a few weeks? You don't even have to pay the candidate any money. If I was looking for a job, I would work without pay for many weeks just to show that I want the job, by doing my best and working my ass off.

Interviewers scan your biography and think that they know you because of your record, even though EVERYBODY lies in his application documents. I think this is a big mistake. It is even custom around here to analyze your handwriting to see if you are a good worker. It's hilarious. It's called "graphology". They even scan your photo and look for certain "signs". It's called "physiognomy", and it is pure nonsense. But even big firms rely on such esoteric methods to find the ideal employee.

Application documents mean jack shit. My past in the business world means jack shit. Perhaps I was a lazy bastard for many years. But give me a few days/weeks to show my potential new employer that I am worth my salary. This would be fair. People can change.

The current systems makes it almost impossible for people who were not part of the economic cycle for a while to find a new job. Do you really think that this is all fine?

Because we can vote, does not mean there is anybody worth a damn that we can vote for. We have a government run by lobbyists and no way to stop it that I can see short of bloody revolution. None of the elected officials do what they say once they are in power. There should be some way through the courts that the people have recourse against a politician who blatantly lies to get elected, or perhaps like in California where the governor got axed by petition. We need some sort of threat like that to keep the politicians honest.

Oh, you DON'T do your own research, I see. you have others do it for you.
Well, I suppose that is one way to keep someone off welfare.

You DO remember I told you to DO IT YOURSELF, don't you?

Or do you just look up stuff that interests you and you know will support your claims and avoid going after information that might prove that you're in the wrong?

No, it comes down to a welfare system that encourages social parasites.

As I've often said, I'm all for helping people get back on their feet who want to get back on their feet. Once in awhile, I do see or hear a little glimmer of sunshine.

I know a minister who runs a shelter for abused spouses. They have a very strict program. The residents are assigned certain tasks like mopping the floor a certain day, cleaning the kitchen a certain day, taking out the garbage, etc. Don't do your assigned tasks and you're out. The residents also get drug tested weekly. Fail a drug test and you're out.

If the resident needs to visit the employment office to look for a job, they won't take you there, but they'll tell you where it is and how to get there, public transportation, etc. It's up to the resident to take the initiative and go.

Residents have a certain time period, 90 days IIRC, to get a job. If they don't have work and are not trying to get a job, they're kicked out. They currently have a resident who was approaching the deadline, but who asked for an extension because she's in school and completeing her degree. The extension was granted because this resident is working at completing her degree and making herself employable, and, in fact, has already been recruited for a job as soon as she finished school.

That's the kind of programs I like to see.

Unfortunately, they're few and far between.

What we mostly have are welfare recipients who don't want to work and are more interested in their drugs, alcohol, nicotine, and daily regimen of watching Oprah and Jerry Springer. I worked a nursing case in a home for 2 years where the patient's father was "disabled", yet managed to work the phones and ran the roads harder selling prescription narcotics than most legal telemarketers and salesmen. He was "unable to work", yet he could crawl under his car and put new brake pads or a CV joint on it, or any other repair that he needed to do because he needed the car to work his drug business.

That is only one story and it's more often the norm than not. I wish that some of the liberal progressives here could go to work with me for one week. I can guarantee you it would be an eye opener.

It's more like the current system may not give you the job you want until you've proven yourself at a lower level. Then you work your way up to the job you want by establishing yourself as dependable and hard working.

I honestly don't know of any employers who will let you work for free for a period to prove yourself. Most employers need workers who they can count on to hit the ground running. Most also don't want to run the risk that you'll get "injured" at their workplace, seeing as they and their insurer will be liable for you.

I have a great idea. Let's export all our welfare mooches to Europe and let them support them for about 40 years and then we will see if their views are still the same after that period of time.

Wrong. And the naive belief that economic and personal freedoms are somehow separable is the cause of much suffering in history. Hayek demonstrated this very powerfully in 'The Road to Serfdom.'

Although socialism is primarily concerned with the economic order, it has been shown pretty conclusively that socialism entails the loss of much personal freedom.

The reason? When THE PEOPLE own or control the means of production, no behavior or desire contrary to THE PEOPLE'S PLAN is permissible. It's why factory managers who missed their production quotas in Soviet Russia were treated as criminals. That ethos does not stem from an authoritarian impulse; it comes from the relentless logic of socialism.

[If you read further, remember what socialism IS--the social control of the means of production--not what it ISN'T--the welfare state, taxes, modern art, sex education, etc.]

Think about it. In socialism, production is for need, not profit. How is production allocated in capitalism? Through price signals. An item in need becomes expensive as demand outruns supply, generating large profits. Investment flows to the profitable sector (the invisible hand!) to increase output. (If you've got money to invest, where do you put it? In an industry that's asleep, or one running three shifts to keep up with demand?)

In socialism, there are no price signals. No one can engage in nasty profit-taking. Therefore, planners have to anticipate needs--needs which they can NEVER accurately predict--and they have to coordinate other sectors accordingly. All products require the coordinated production of many goods; interference with one, throws off the whole schedule. And that means the plan has difficulty meeting its targets. And that's why failure becomes a crime.

Well, guess what? Skills are resources, too. Do you think in socialism you're allowed to pick your field of expertise? Probably not. Do you think you get to choose where you'll work? No, probably not. Do you think you'll be able to quit if you're unhappy? What do you think you're going to do? Go across the street and get a better offer? NOT BLOODY LIKELY.

Do you still live with the idea that socialism will lead to paradise? That your "personal" freedoms won't suffer? Well, try publishing a critique of the state. You'll find your "bourgeois" right to free speech is a fiction, comrade.

SOCIALISM ENTAILS A POWERFUL STATE THAT RIGOROUSLY ENFORCES AN ECONOMIC ORDER THAT COULD NEVER ARISE THROUGH CONSENSUS. And any action or thought contrary to that order becomes a crime.

"Personal freeedoms" not suffer under socialism? You're dreaming.

The people here who AREN'T haters of socialism have never truly experienced it. They believe silly ideals that were shown to be foolish decades ago. They've ignored the evidence: everywhere socialism--REAL SOCIALISM--has been tried--WITHOUT EXCEPTION--the people have suffered very badly for it.

How exactly am I supposed to research a subjective claim about people you supposedly know?

I remember you made a statement in Post #6, I asked you for a clarification in Post #9, and the next thing I know you're pitching one of your hissies. So where was it you told me to look up verification for your subjective statement?

Again, I'll ask you: How am I supposed to verify a statement made by a "LizK" on a message board?

And before you spend the next week shrieking and running in circles like the last time, I'd like to get back to Post #72.

Unlike you, I don't put the people I know into little boxes labeled "white people", "Native people," etc., so I had to stop and think for a moment, and the answer is this:

I don't know that many Native people, but every single one of them was employed while they were alive. Knew a gentleman who was retired on a railroad pension; he died of lung cancer a while back. His daughter is an R.N. Her daughter's a full-time student and works in a bookstore.

A friend of mine, another R.N., worked on the rez for 30 years. Has a daughter in college. Among my friend's acquaintances was a gentleman who was a tribal elder, a shaman, and a sometime actor. He's also since passed away. I never met him, but I've seen his work.

So, to answer your question, I don't know any Native people on welfare.

Anything else you want to know before you resume your usual behaviors?

Now who's being paranoid here? A lively debate about socialism and the welfare state is what the op started. Only thing is these kind of threads dont always go the way one or the other wants them to.
Imagine how boring things would be if everybody agreed on the same thing all the time. "Bush suks" "yeah, I agree" "So what's next?" "Let's talk about how much capitalism sucks" "Oh absolutly" BOOOORRRING.
Next thing you know this place will turn into another TNZ.
Fuck that.
Of course if that's what you want there's always Trek BBS.
Of course I dont evr expect one to agree with me or see things my way nor should you expect me to agree with the way you see things. Aint gonna happen.

And that's just the way I like it.

Fixed!

"Paranoid"? You're going to tell me this board is fair and balanced. This I gotta hear.

Of course not. But I was kind of hoping this one wouldn't devolve down into the usual baseless statements about "welfare parasites." Optimistic, I know, but...

Instead, it's all about "Obama suks" and "[WF's blanket definition of] socialism suks."

Either's boring. And it's made more so by the fact that, as I said upthread (and so far no one's offered much more than confirmation), WF has gotten into the lazy habit of labeling everything it doesn't like as "librul" or "socialism."

Talk about boring...