Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

El. Oh. El!

I mean, who is this horrible woman that clearly has been turned against other women.

Clearly a right wing knuckle dragger, right?

Well, not quite.

https://staff.ki.se/people/angelica-hirschberg-linden


About me
I am a professor of obstetrics and gynecology, in particular of reproductive medicine, at the Department of Women´s and Children´s Health, Karolinska Institutet, and senior consultant, in charge of gynecological endocrinology, at the Department of Gynecology and Reproductive Medicine, Karolinska University Hospital, Stockholm, Sweden.

Research description
My research is focused on disorders of reproductive function and gonadal development in women. The overall aim is to improve diagnostics, fertility and long-term health in women with strenuous exercise, obesity, polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), primary ovarian insufficiency (POI) and disorders of sex development (DSD). The research is translational from experimental in vitro studies of endometrial function to randomized controlled trials and population-based epidemiological studies performed in collaboration with national and international research networks. The clinical research is performed at the Women's Health Research Unit, Karolinska University Hospital, Solna and the experimental part at BioClinicum, Karolinska Institutet, Solna.

Teaching portfolio
I am a coordinator of the student-elective course Women, sex hormones and fertility (7.5 hp), the medical programme, Karolinska Institutet. I am also a course coordinator of the specialist training and advanced education in Reproductive endocrinology and infertility, Swedish Society of Obstetrics and Gynecology (SFOG). I have authored more than 25 book chapters about women and sports, polycystic ovary syndrome, amenorrhea, appetite regulation and eating disorders.

Education
MD, Karolinska Institutet 1984

PhD, Department of Pharmacology, Karolinska Institutet 1989

Licensed physician, Karolinska Institutet 1993

Associate professor in experimental Obstetrics and Gynecology 1995

Specialist in Obstetrics and Gynecology 2000

Senior consultant, in charge of gynecological endocrinology 2002

Professor in Obstetrics and Gynecology (reproductive medicine), Karolinska Institutet 2007

Academic honours, awards and prizes
Awarded the King’s Seraphim Medal, 8th size, 2018

Awarded the 2016 Grand Prize in Sport Science

Appointed Gynecologist-in-Attendance to the Royal Family since 2009

Board member of the International Society of Gynecological Endocrinology (ISGE)

Board member of the European Menopaus and Andropause Society (EMAS)

Medical advisor to the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) and the International Olympic Committee (IOC)

The official gynecologist of the Swedish Olympic Teams (SOC)

Member of Faculty Advisory Board, Karolinska Institutet

PhD study director at the Department of Women’s and Children’s Health, Karolinska Institutet

But that's too much to read too, right?

Don't worry, I won't ask you to even skim through the 50+ peer-reviewed papers she's published in her field.

Maybe, just maybe, she has her own mind when it comes to this, is one of the foremost experts in the world, and still somehow disagrees with you guys.

I'm sure she'd be called a bigot, child rapist and useful idiot (oh, and let's not forget libertarian!) if she were here! LOL.

No "dogma" post is invalid.

Dicky is not a serious person, this is obvious. Trying so hard to be cringe woke, completely shutting down any type of conversation, ignoring facts that are inconvenient to him and labelling anyone who disagrees with him slightly a bigot

He’s the kind of lib that’s frequently featured on Libs of Tik Tok - literally the worst, fringe example of his movement

At the end of the day he’s harming this particular cause more than he’s helping it. He’s not interested in winning people over or finding some common ground and rather alienating confused people on the fence and more interested in getting rep and one upping people with memes and ridiculous nonsense than anything else

I’d be embarrassed for him if i didn’t think he was such a terrible human being

You forgot to brag about your watch.
Or was that Hood?
I dunno, you aging trolls all bleed together.

I don’t wear a watch and I’ve aged beautifully, diacanu of Tik Tok.

Tik Tok, dogma-dogma, tomayto tomahto.

Probably the most salient point.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/02/190212160030.htm

New rules governing international track and field competitions would require some women to medically reduce their testosterone levels to compete. A new study suggests the regulations are rooted in flawed science.

Did you ever stop to think that people are tired of your clown routine where you don’t try a and defend your positions, you just make snarky remarks and facepalm everything?

Here's an idea, you, Rimjob, Demi, and Lubak can go start a four-way PM room, and bitch about me until the heat death of the universe, and the rest of us won't miss you.

Dude, the pot is on the phone and it wants me to tell you that you are fucking black.

We could call it the room of people who are supposedly liberal but support fascism and right wing theology whenever they have a chance. Ok, that is a long name so we can call it the closet of republicans.

Um… wrong thread?

What does that even mean?

It seems like a reasonable plan. You can’t make everyone happy 100% of the time.

You’re an intelligent human. What point do you think the author is trying to convey?

Is anyone actually arguing against the idea that in order to compete in competitions a woman must not go over a maximum amount of T for a certain period of time? I should say anyone who is not for an all out ban.

No, of course not.

This is all about having an excuse to bash trans people. No one but the locals gave a damn about any of this, and it was all being handled as it should, until the SJW snowflakes on the right found out about it and started losing their fucking mind about trans people harming the women they were harming in the first place.

Then @Demiurge wants to tell us all about how accepting and liberal he is after losing his mind all over something small that is being handled fine. The problem is not trans people, it is the fact people use these issues to be insulting bigots. It is their cover. Even Demi admits he wants to misgender and insult people and he is only holding back in some sort of effort to pretend we are all friends.

Things are being handled. Now we have Tucker carlson libertarians using this moment to attack the trans community and pretend the only reason to be trans is to win some high school sports competition to shit on women. When someone calls people out on that the professional victim squad goes right to their playbook and blames all their hate on the woke left. They would have been nice, even though they all rushed in to bash trans people and blame them for the unfairness of the world, but those damn trannies and their allies were mean to them because they went an attacked high school kids for playing a game together.

Do go fuck yourself with the idea you are some liberal @Demiurge . You are really one of the puss filled hate pimples on rupert murdoch's ball sack. You are not fooling me.

I would also point out where @Amaris is correct about the middle ground being the real enemy. These assholes like @Demiurge are always whispering in the ear of the moderates. He says it is not the fault of the bullies and bigots that there is this explosion of hate and these sports are being disrupted, but it is the fault of that trans kid for faking being trans just because she wanted to win some high school swimming trophies. It is not that some girls like swimming and want to compete in high school swimming, and this trans girl happens to be like that and is just naturally playing with the other girls. Nope, she is ruining womens sports for everyone and erasing women from existence.

What is really crazy in my mind is that the middle ground people get riled up by that crazy lie because they think they are being attacked. It is so easy to hate the trans kid because they are attacking women. It is not that they just like swimming and being on a team, they really want to turn all men into women and hate women at the same time. For some reason this sounds reasonable to people in the middle. Demiurge is really on the trans people side, but he just cannot let them destroy humanity by participating in a high school swim team?

Before anyone says that is not what he is saying, look at the argument. The swim team regulatory agency is going to limit girls (including trans girls) who have too much T in their system in the future and they are allowing this one to do her thing even though she seems to be within those guidelines anyway. That is not good enough. Now we have to ban these kids all together because some people were rude when they blew this shit out of proportion. Demiurge wanted to be liberal but someone argued with him and now we have to go a banning instead of finding some way for the trans girls to play with the other girls. If everyone just kept their mouths shut this would have never been an issue even though the people who spoke up and made it the cancellation of women were the ones who started all of this shit.

Sports matter for kids which makes it a big issue in defending trans children. High school sports do not mean a fucking thing to anyone outside of that high school league. you do not care about the sports teams in a school 50 miles away. You especialloy do not give a fuck about the girls team in some town over 50 miles away. There is probably some sort of actual cheating going on much closer to demi in some high school and he could not care less about that. He could not be bothered to even look he cares so damned much. However, he wants to say he cares about this trans kid swimming in some district way the fuck out of his worlod because he is noble and just and really gives a fuck about fairness and the feelings of the girls there.

liar.

Spoken like a true extremist.

The argument is that reducing T does not make enough of a difference for someone who went through male puberty. The advantages remain.

No, it's not. Granted, it is for some people. But in general, if you're not going to recognize the good-faith position that people are genuinely concerned about fairness for women in sports, then you're not going to be convincing anyone.

We see it repeated in this thread, people dismissing the ethic of fairness in sports, like it doesn't matter. I believe it doesn't matter to the Twitter wokelords who spend their days keyboard jockeying and have never set foot on a sports field -- 100%. But sports matter to a great many people, and perceived fairness is central.

The stated premise of their recommendation is actually a pretty unsupportable one - that people can't change their biological sex. For most purposes except reproduction, yes, they can, but it's not a binary phenomenon. It's a process, that process can take a different amount of time based on an individual's biochemistry, and we should be able to have a discussion on how that impacts things that are dependent on sex, such as sports. And specifically in sports what a fair guideline is.

For instance, 'open' and 'female' would lead to exclusion of transathletes in large measure. As open would be dominated by men, as the transition process does reduce muscle mass and aerobic capability of transwomen over time. And female wouldn't allow them to compete under that guideline.

Yes, that was very prominent 3-4 years ago and a real complaint. The paper in question was found to have very sloppy data-keeping. It was reworked based on the actual numbers - and led to the same result. The mistakes in the data weren't enough to alter the signal. It was still in question so the IAFF requested a new investigation, and the next paper also showed the same result. So the IAFF kept that recommendation. Several sports where it's germane in the IOC have since adopted the same guidelines, as has the World Athletic Foundation, and now the NCAA. It was brought up in court at the Swiss based International Court for Sports Arbitration, and the intersex athlete requesting it be overturned lost her case. She appealed to the Swiss Supreme Court who also ruled against her. She's since brought it before the European Council for Human Rights. We'll see how that plays out.

The point is the science is more opinion than science. There are many more factors that determine the success of an athlete. In those circles the main one is money.

Used to be we kvetched about the baddie soviets bankrolling their athletes and our amateurs couldn't compete fairly.

Sports is inherently unfair. Someone will have an advantage besides genes and ambition. Genetics is next on the list.

Get over it.

The Soviets did more than bankroll their athletes, they used banned substances routinely. And the Russians still do. As a matter of fact the entire national team was banned from competing under the Russian banner for a massive organized cheating system at the Olympics. Should we just get over that?

Without fair competition, there can be no athletics. It does indeed then become professional wrestling.

And I don't need to get over anything, Steve. My interpretation, based on science and the key value of competitive sports, fair competition, is absolutely winning.

If you don't value sports, perhaps you should get over it.

the key value, "fair competition," is a joke.

I don't value sports. I think I lack the sports gene. I think it's the same as the god gene. The same gene also gives one pleasure from being part of a any group activity. These characteristics tend to make people warlike. Sports and religion are ways to channel this, so maybe I do value sports a little.

Had me, then lost me again.

I and the governing bodies of every single athletic competition in the world disagree.

IMO men are naturally warlike. I agree, sports are a way to channel that away from actual killing and death. Even hooliganism, the worst aspect of sports, isn't actual warfare.

I disagree that religion does the same. The world is replete with religious wars. Sports, not so much.

Indeed, the Olympics were created as an aid to peace and cooperation among nations. There's even a UN working group on how sports promotes peace.