Trans activists failing to persuade people on the sports issue

So which women's college teams are competing in March Madness?

Another lie from the liar. Who is taking away these sports? Before you say no one, there are people taking away girls sports. No one funds them like boys sports. The reason why I say you are lying is because if you actually paid attention to women's issues and girls sports you would know they have less, and it is because no one gives a fuck to fund them. You are just pretending that it is trans kids who take them away when the actual reason they are lacking is lack of funding because of sexism.

Were those experiences ruined because they lost? Because your next lie is that those experiences were ruined because they lost and that is why we should not let trans girls participate. This goes to the toxicity of competition. This actually has nothing to do with trans kids even though it is being blamed on trans kids. Part of playing for almost everyone is losing. even the elite of elite lose from time to time. Check out Tiger woods for what happens when we do not teach people how to lose. If we are going to get the value from playing games losing has to be part of the equation, or we create a toxic compitative environment.

You do realize there is evidence this concern is all a fucking lie. One word ladybugs. decades ago there was a movie with Jonothan Brandis (I think that was his name) where he joined a female high school soccer team to help them win. People did not freak the fuck out and start worrying about a team cheating to win by getting a boy to dress up as a girl.

The entire pretense of that movie was ridiculous because any cis boy who played against girls would face so much abuse because he was such a loser he had to play against girls. No boy in america is going to compete against girls for the purpose of winning a trophy. The reason why a trans girl wants to do it is because the purpose of the game is socialization with female peers. You are flat out lying when you claim any boy is going to go out there on his own accord just to win against girls. Yes, there is a purpose to playing sports that include women recreationally, but if your purpose is toxic competition by cheating you are not going to get what you want by being the best in what is considered a lesser category of sports.

As for whether or not you are actually fapping to the teenage girls in sports, I might lose one or two bets but the odds are in my favor that you are the standard male porn viewer. I know because I used to market that shit. vegas would not even allow a bet on a cis man fapping to young females in sports uniforms.

Oh noes, are you finding yourself of FF's side again? Maybe there is a reason the boy is liking your bullshit shitting on the trans community because you like fapping to the girlies? It could be that he sees you as a brother who shares his toxic masculinity and sexism. It is not because you are woke and decent. He hates that shit.

@Federal Farmer you can fuck off with your “Winner” rep, I’m talking about finding an understanding that works for people and you’re still talking about trans folk “grooming” kids. You’re so far behind it ain’t even funny

I think fairness is a red herring when organized sports has never been about competition, it's always been about entertainment. No one gave a fuck when Dustin Hoffman or Robin Williams or Louis Anderson played women. They provided the same entertainment value as any athlete, regardless of gender. Sports is just a big improv show more akin to wrestling.

I will agree that this is something that is presently in flux and that becomes the issue. In a better world trans girls would start puberty blocking hormones at puberty. This would stop the male characteristics from developing. I would also agree you should be on the path to get the participation in gender specific sports.

The reality is that in order for a sports organization to make a decision that can be respected, they have to back it up with looking at real science, and deciding based on logic and facts and not someone's feelings. That is really not us. It is good to discuss our feelings, but fairness authority looks best when it is backed by facts.

Shut. Up.

You know what also chaps my ass about all of this? It is the reality that I have gone and played games with more girls on the team because I just wanted to play with the girls. I have seen it in a few leagues where the guys have to be forced to have women on their teams or the women get handicapped or just end up losing.

If people were not so damned competitive this sports thing would not be as much of an issue. Maybe competition needs to focus on doing better on your own base. I am happy to give a hard loss over an easy victory. I do not like blowouts, unless it is against blowhards. Then I love blowouts.

I think something is getting lost in this argument. The best part about playing the games is the trying. Put me on the undergunned team. we may score less, but when we do it is a blast.

I spent a large part of my youth in toxic competition. I gave up bowling for years because I hated that I could not win all the time. Once I found paintball I learned sportmanship and playing the game with people. It was great fun to be myself and participate with others, and it changed a lot of minds about trans people.

I think that is another fear from the fascists. They know if you play a game with a trans person on your team you will bond a lot of the time. Sports stories are like war stories. You build a bond with the team you are playing with. great plays will happen even on losing teams.

I never went into the pros in paintball. I played with them and kicked their asses at times, but the pros were exclusionary. I wanted to win or lose with my friends. That is where sports matter for trans people and anyone. Back in the day I could stomp anyone on the field, but the best part was the people I played with. Once I brought that to every other sport and game I played everything was better.

Taking high school sports away from trans kids is taking away bonding with their peers. It is not about the scores for 99 percent of them. It is about them finding something they love to do, and us teaching them how to enjoy it and respect it.

The exact number that enjoy a sufficient level of interest.

Are you serious?

https://www.ncaa.com/brackets/basketball-women/d1/2022

The #1 seded teams are Stanford, Louisville, NC State, and South Carolina.

The most dominant women's team in history, UConn, is having an off season. But they are every bit as dominant in their sport as Wooten's UCLA teams were on the men's side.

Now are you saying that TV doesn't hype women's basketball nearly as much. Sure. That's a decision the networks make based on their profit margin.

That's entirely different than the fact that the universities are required by law to give them the same amount of resources, and that has led to US sports flourishing in the international arena. And yes, that means contracts for the much more profitable men's sports are divided up equally with the women's teams.

The women's hockey and soccer teams are far, far better than the men's teams in international play. The women's basketball team is just as dominant as the men's.

Indeed, women win more medals now in the Olympics for the US then men do.

You don't have to care. But that doesn't make it not true.

And you know what? I don't watch much women's sports like the WNBA or softball either. But I don't need to get personal value out of it to recognize that other people do.

Yeah, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Organized sport is ALL about competition. And for the most part, it's a good thing, though granted there are some toxic elements to that level of hyper-competitiveness.

Student athletes at the high school and college levels are more likely to graduate, are less likely to commit suicide, are less likely to get into legal trouble, and have a higher GPA average than their peers. Who says so? Many, many independent studies.

Now are the big sports leagues about entertainment? Sure, but the overwhelming part of that is the product they put on the field. If they just held the half-time show, no one would go. Dynastic teams rake in far more money than less successful ones. The competition absolutely matters, and no, it's not fake or scripted like wrestling.

The rest of the world suffers so much from not having football and marching bands.

it's about ego and stroking it. Entertaining? you bet.

And is that down to the competitive element? Or, as Tererun pointed out, the team social aspect? Perhaps not feeling excluded and knowing you have teammates who respect you and will have your back does more to prevent suicidal feelings than whether or not your team is doing well, or whether you're better or worse than another student?

So what happens if you cut trans students off from the ability to engage in those activities? More dead LBGTQ kids. Not that the GOP give a shit about THAT.

The rest of the world has football, our soccer, and if anything it's more important in many societies across the world than American football is here. Once again, you don't have to agree with the emphasis, but to deny its reality is a bit bizarre IMO.

So you just posted your evidence we should encourage trans kids to participate in sports. If sports are benefitting kids in these ways we should try to get groups that are vulnerable into them, right? I would say it is not because they win, but rather because they can play.

Not worshipped during education.

Let's talk about sports scholarships and the rest of the world. Matt?

Americans and football are bizarre. Toot toot!

Certainly both, though even students in individual sports as opposed to team sports show benefits. A lot of it is simple healthy exercise that leads to the production of endorphins, but almost all sports also include a lot of other skills, such as time management and discipline.

There is nothing inherent to respect in team sports. That's earned. And yes, a lot of respect in team sports comes from effort, ability, and success. A lot of kids are excluded from team sports simply because they aren't capable of competing at that level. Once you leave middle school, almost all teams require trying out, and you aren't given membership in the team just because you want to play.

I'm not stating that all trans kids should be excluded. I have stated explicitly time and again that as long as they don't show unfair advantages they should be included. But this 'sports aren't competitive schtick is clearly coming from a lot of people that either didn't want to, or didn't get the chance to, play.

Clearly the international bodies and now the NCAA have realized that their earlier guidelines on trans student athletes were too permissive, and that was unfair to those people competing against them.

Your rights end where another person's rights begin. And women have rights too.

And because that's a very difficult bar to hurdle, that things should be fair, you are now seeing multiple people in this thread argue that fairness doesn't matter.

You speak like you are an adult who does not play sports. It is like you are completely unaware people have sports leagues that are recreational all over the place. Things like high school sports are warped as fuck when you talk about toxic competitive attitude. As adults rec leagues are often a mish mash of genders on teams.

I really have to ask if you know about recreational sports leagues because you seem to be fixated on elitist competitions on TV.

I would be absolutely fine with getting rid of sports scholarships - once we get rid of the ridiculous tuition costs associated with higher education in America. Clearly that's far more impactful to American society.

As it is, a black student is 50 times more likely than a white student to be on an athletic scholarship. Until we get tuition under control I'd hate to revoke so many minority kid's full rides to good schools.

I can agree with you that there needs to be a complete revamp of the US educational system as it is toxically associated with sports. This trans thing is just a symptom of that overall problem.

American post secondary is a product, just like chevrolet. It's all about marketing and money and not about bettering society. As is sport. Another problem is how pervasive it has become in highschool and middle school.

Getting pretty far afield here - I'll just say that more than one thing can be true. A lot of the betterment of US society does spring from academic circles at universities. That's a different thing than the fact they are businesses run from profit. Both things are true.

As to physical education in schools, personally I'd be fine with more of that. Quite frankly our nation has a tremendous amount of health related issues because we don't emphasize these aspects enough. And if you are looking at job training, then some of the best paying jobs you can get are in professional sports. And a lot of them aren't on the court/field. I have a friend that was a sports kinesiologist for the Atlanta Hawks. She got a full ride to the University of Georgia as a female athlete. She did quite well for herself and now has switched careers to photopraphy. Nice life.

You are so correct that this is all image and marketing they are arguing over. There is no care about the game at all. It is just a place to make a hero brand name. That is all the olympics, pro sports, and college sports are about.

most high school teams are not elite. Most high school teams are just kids who should be learning how to have fun.

These are symptoms of the same problem. Get rid of competitive sports in schools and let everyone participate in whatever they feel like.

Why don't we have independently run leagues like we do as adults? Maybe some adults could play with the kids growing up and show kids everything is not going to be who you go to high school with? When I was a teenager my parents brought me into their rec volleyball league and it was fun. Thgose were also nights we were not doing dumb ass shit and we learned how to not be stupid teens.

People already can organize for sports that aren't competitive. Just about every college on the face of the earth offers intramural sports. So if you are looking for team building, bonding, and recreation, then you already have that outlet.

At various times in college I did soccer, flag football, and archery. I even tried yoga once -turned out I'm not bendy at all. LOL.

As to the rest, the argument that collegiate sports are a drain on school resources generally falls completely flat on a dollar value analysis - they run these programs, especially the big football and basketball programs, because they produce tremendous resources for successful schools. Those resources go back into the other less monetarily successful programs - indeed, they exist because of that money. And some of it of course goes directly to the school itself that can be used for scholarships, salaries, and upkeep of school grounds.

And schools that don't want to put those resources into them don't - not every college has football or basketball teams.

Too many do because they are competing for students. Students are indoctrinated in middle school and highschool they must have football/baseball/basketball to cheer. They look for who has a football team and not class size and graduation success. It does fuck all for the majority of students.

The emphasis should be solely on academics and let kids be kids.

Yes, thank you for saying everything has to be branded and commercialized to be valued.

Ok, so you may not be jerking off to the high school girls, but you are loving the system that monetizes it, and you do not want your customers starting to wonder if they are gay because they fapped to a boy playing on a girl's team. BTW Brandis was cute as fuck in ladybugs and some guys get off on girly boys. Perhaps you should jump on the taboo train because it sells.

Hey, I am just trying to put it in your terms.

I've got a high schooler looking at colleges now. We've gotten literally a thousand mailers advertising schools. Almost none of them cite the football team as a reason to go to that school. None of his peers care about that.

The #1 rate of growth in higher education is in community colleges. Why? Affordability. Guess what? None of them have college football teams.

Of those attending 4 year universities, we know why they go - we have years of survey data.

https://www.prweb.com/releases/2018/02/prweb15202158.htm
https://encoura.org/mind-gap-targeting-student-concerns-yield/

Affordability, core academics, and job preparation were the foremost reasons kids choose a specific college.

No, I don't think kids are brainwashed into liking sporting events. The reason sporting events are so popular is people actually like them. Not just for the event itself, but the social aspects of attending.

You can have your opinon on whether schools should include physical education or offer secondary programs such as sports in their curriculum, that's a difference of opinion, and I understand your POV even if I don't agree with it.

But the rest of that statement was counter-factual, and that's not a question of opinion.

good for him. Here in GA kids decide based on who has football and the best dorms/rec center. Public schools are spending vast amounts of money on these.

If Americans aren't brainwashed, why do we do school sports differently from the rest of the world (don't get me started on marching band)?

A few jocks play sports and the rest cheer them on in highschool. We make movies about it. It's not healthy.