well that escalated quickly! Business as usual or the tip of the iceberg?

side note I knew she was in the Miss Israel pageant but I didn't realize she won it! Regardless how DARE she fulfill her mandatory service to her country just like every other able-bodied Israeli citizen.

I don't believe military service should be mandatory because not everyone is cut out for it. Regardless, good or her. She asks for peace and keyboard commandos in twitter world get triggered. Losers.

Natalie Portman will be next to get slammed (keep it clean you perverts) because she is Israeli born - side note her real last name is Hershlag - and is very pro-Israel.
Side note II - damn Gal Gadot's hair is INSANELY PERFECTLY LUXURIENTLY HOT in that picture. She can't be human...no possible way she can be real.

Here is my problem with the bleeding hearts on either side. It is the same problem I have with the warmongers on either side. It is all a distraction, and it is costing us billions.

I get that if the US and the UN steps out both sides are going to attack each other with all the vitriol and horrors of a war. That is because this is a simmering war that has never ended. Pity the palestinians because they are being killed off by a brutal regime that outguns them. Pity the zionists because they get blown up too, and if they ever put down their defenses for peace there would be blood in the streets. I totally agree that is a reality for both sides.

I am tired of my tax money going to the brutal rtegime that is doing this to the palestinians. It is billions of dollars a year which could save so many poor americans, provide medicine for sick americans, educate stupid americans, or fix american infrastructure so we do not have more gasapocolypses, or other hording stupidity.

There are horrors going on all over the world in places I have no control over. I think america should be a home of people who respect each other's right to exist, that safely houses different faiths so they will never be wiped out by wars, and allows in people who believe in those same values and wants to participate in our community and is not trying to just set up their country over here because people are kicking their asses over there. Jews want security to be jews, and we should provide it here. The stupid anti semites should find themselves in american jails or give them a gun and a flight to the middle east where they can fight for god. Muslims of different caliphates should be able to exist over here and protected. If jews christians and muslims want to start shit with each other then go to your fucking holy lands and do your fucking thing. If atheists want to get mouthy like Bill Maher and start talking about eliminating religious people, we can send him over there too. He can go take his violence over there too.

I do not want to support the wars with anything other than the people who want to fight to the death over who is right about god. The punishment for religious hate crimes should be that we air drop you into the middle of the religious war in the middle east.

Everyone has some great big bleeding heart and wants to fight over it, then let us go fight. I want to stop contributing to the fight and make america a place for all who can respect other people's existence.

Yet your case thus far has been almost exclusively forward looking, that the only agenda which matters is moving forward peacefully and forgetting the recent past of post WW11 occupation. Then you raise the much more distant memory of an Isaeli ancestral homeland as being key to understanding the situation.

You talk about understanding peoples motivations yet seem to overlook those utterly by invoking the suggestion of a necessary two party state solution. I'd venture that precious few parties on either side are currently motivated by the hope of cooperation.

No one used tanks to create Israel, but then again no one really invested that great a military deployment in creating Pakistan. Nonetheless in both cases partition was mandatory and imposed by an external entity which suffered a critical failure in it's understanding of the cultures whose fate it determined in a matter of weeks.

What I am suggesting to you now is that your position is one of an external observer insisting that just such a two state divide is the route to peace and the only way for the players involved is to agree to such. My response to that is to suggest that any road to peace is almost certainly obscure to any of us posting here and would likely look very little like anything we imagine precisely because for the most part we are not involved parties. Arguably those involved parties themselves likely see no current way forward but time and again we have seen that outside interference tends almost exclusively to inflame and prolong local conflicts.

It may be that we have to sit back and neutrally observe a war develop and let the situation resolve organically as those involved parties pursue their respective agendas to some form of conclusion. It may be that we have a role in containing the violence to a limited geographical or operational sphere, lending aid to the inevitable refugee populations. It could be that we become crucial to negotiations in which we play a behind the scenes role in diplomatic circles.

What we can't do is make a determination of what must happen to bring peace about.

Scum.

This is extremely well stated and I totally agree. The only thing I would enter into this is there would eventually be a winning side. Given the situation my guess would be it would be Zionist Isreal. I think the US strategic position is seeing the same thing. Yes, that is probably because of US intervention, but the war seems to have a winner and loser and is just being protracted by peace talks. Yes, I know this is approaching the situation from heartless logical reality at this point. Before anyone freaks, I do understand this means the zionist jewish supremacists in Isreal are going to wipe out the palestinians in some extremely cruel ways and this might even lead to things like concentration camps and the murder of the people who are left until there is no possible way they can fight anymore. That seems to be what the people of zionist Isreal overwhelmingly want even though there are probably a chunk who oppose it.

What happens when that victory comes would be important to the US who maintains an influence in the middle east as a front in their opposition of China and Russia. Having Isreal as an ally dependent on the US in that area means they are going to help us out to some extent in that locality. They are close enough to the locals on the chinese and russian borders in that area to spy and destabilize for us around the middle east. from a purely strategical point you do not chose the muslims in the area as the US simply because most of their factions really do not want your presence there like zionist Isreal does.

I understand why the US plays stupid games with all of this, but morally, ethically, and compassionately I am opposed to it.

How much is it going to take for Biden to condemn this? Are they fucking serious? I know Trump tried to paint Biden as hating Isreal, but that was completely wrong. Biden is cool with this as long as he has not completely changed his position on things. Biden has always been a supporter and excuser of Isreali violence and abuses of palestinians. Maybe if they drop a nuke he might wag his finger before the whole world goes up.

The Biden Bros who have a problem with this because they are "progressive" were warned of things like this in the primaries. This is one of those areas where if Biden actually did something against Isreal I would have to give him credit for moving left. I will be one of the first pleasantly surprised people if he does anything, but it is not going to be much of anything.

This is Biden, and this is exactly what you elected. If you did not know that you are fucking stupid and gullible as any trump rube.

I heard on the radio yesterday that nine (or some number near that) Palestinians lost eyesight permanently from Israeli forces firing rubber bullets.
Okay let's think about this: statistically there is no fucking way this happened nine times by accident. They would have to be deliberately shooting people in the face. No way if the shooters were shooting center mass of the torso would result in that many people getting their face in the line of fire unless every Palestinian walks around like Quasimodo. These shooters (not saying all Israeli security forces are doing this) were trying to cause as much physical harm as possible given the force they were authorized to use for the mission.

Fucked up if true but you have to take everything on both sides with a grain of salt in the chaos of violence. All I know is I wouldn't shoot somebody in the face with rubber bullets. If my intended target is a tangible threat I would be using real bullets. If I had to use rubber bullets I would shoot center mass - that's plenty of motivation to chill out/comply without causing permanent damage in most situations.

The Isreali terrorist forces (I am not going to call them defense forces when they are not defending) are not neutral towards the palestinians. They think they are violent animals who need to be brutalized to keep them in check. They are resisting their urge to kill them all.

I have seen videos of people over there interviewing them and yes they are jew supremacists who think of muslims like the US thought of african slaves back in the day. They might even think that way about the rest of the world's people.

I just refer to it as a zionist rather than jewish. Sort of like how you refer to Nazis rather than christians or germans. They are like ISIS or the other extremist muslim groups over there. The armies who are invading and killing are zealots, and some of the armies that are losing are zealots too.

It is a different mentality. I may dislike and hate what you have to say. I may want the police to stop you if you beat up on other people, which is not what I think you do but is just where the line is. I really do not want you killed. As much as I may not like some of the racist things you do or say, I do not want to kill you. I do not want to beat you up. I do not want the police to come take you out of your home for an opinion. It is different if you are acting on threatening statements, but you can say awful things from your property or in certain public spaces if you want.

We have to recognize there are people who want to impose their beliefs on others and harm others based on their experiences in the world.

Um. Why were there photographers all set up and ready for that to happen to that specific building?

Not sure if its been posted here yet, but Israel bombed a high rise that had offices for the Associated Press and Al Jazeera.

Nope, not at all concerning that they're targeting the press...isn't that a war crime?

Standard operating procedure for them, every time they attack Gaza.

You understand there's a difference between understanding the motivations of the parties, both of which are rooted in the past, and what I see as the only path forward, which I was specifically asked about many posts ago?

I've repeatedly stated that I don't believe there is a peaceful resolution.

So, 1) the parties involved will not change their POV because of their historical antecedents, hence me discussing those, as several people here don't seem to be aware of the why at all, and 2) the only hope of achieving peace is them changing from these POVs, which there is no indication after 75 years they will ever do.

Therefore, from the beginning, I've stated my belief is that we aren't going to see peace. And that's tragic. Much more for the Palestinians, mind you, who lost at the beginning, lost in the middle, and are losing now.

But part of the problem, which was not being discussed at the beginning of this thread and is extremely pertinent, is the governing body of Palestine's determination to destroy the state of Israel. They have repeatedly stated as their end goal.

And that invokes fears of the Shoah among Israelis, and rightfully so.

Yes. Hence the repeated statements that I don't see a peaceful resolution.

Yes again. Though Pakistan and India while engaging in many conflicts are not locked in a death spiral like we see in Israel and Palestine. They have some territorial disputes, but they have gone beyond claims that the other entity must be purged from the world and they will not accept a lesser outcome as their long term goal.

Likely this is due to the mass displacement of population that accompanied the formation, as much as that galls. Ultimately it allowed for relatively stable borders. with the only real area of dispute now Kashmir.

My personal POV is irrelevant to the formation of the conflict in any way at all. Yes, I'm just discussing my personal thoughts on the matter.

Of course I hope they find a peaceful solution, my personal POV however is I don't see one on the horizon, and several factors would have to change before it was possible.

The two-state framework is in no way being imposed. It is however what the best diplomatic minds in the world have come up with as the only likely path forward, because it does engage and alter those factors which stop peace from being achieved. But again, it's up to the institutions, the two governments involved, to agree to that. This external imposition you are speaking of is relevant to the formation 75 years ago, but is completely and might I say obviously not the issue now, and again, it's very odd that you keep coming back to what is an obvious untruth.

It appears to me your response is that we should continue to let them murder each other, which is de facto all we really can do. It is not however a solution in any way. It is the inevitable increase in violence, and the most likely outcomes either massive displacement of population or a long term genocide.

And while I think that's going to be the ultimate outcome, I don't think the international community should stop trying to broker a peace before it ends in even greater tragedy than we see now.

Your fixation on the 'imposition' of a two-state system by outside parties is quite frankly an obvious untruth. All any external party is doing on that score is diplomatic pressure and using financial aid as an incentive. That's not a forced externality.

Absolutely.

But I'll at least give them this - per AP, who is rightly outraged by this act, the Israelis told them prior to the attack, so no lives were lost.

And it's a stupid thing for Israel to do, because there is no need for news organizations to get out what is going on. We'll be seeing daily video coming out duriung the conflict. It's a 1980s playbook, and it just makes them look worse. If anything, AP was being objective in their reporting.

Among the many factors that need to change, let's hope we see the upcoming 6th election of the Israeli government finally see a change, as Netanyahu is a bad actor and clearly a hurdle that must be cleared to any path to peace.

If i was warned that my office was going to be bombed I'd set up nearby so I could get a video of it.

if they are just shooting into a crowd, they might want to tweak their tactics. The optics (no pun intended) of people losing eyes is not a smart play. If they are close enough to see and fire upon a crowd (I don't know the range & accuracy of rubber bullets, I think I'll google it) then I would think they are close enough to aim at specific targets and shoot center mass, or even shoot for the legs if necessary. Okay, I'm off to google up these rubber bullets.

And......done. This link answered my general questions enough. Without a detailed analysis of how the Israelis deploy rubber bullets and with what weapons there's no way to really determine if the injuries are intentional or not. Regardless tear gas seems like a safer alternative in most cases.

The Deadly Truth About Rubber Bullets (forbes.com)

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021...l-in-gaza-occupied-west-bank-mounts-live-news

the press office building was not a legit military target UNLESS - not splitting hairs here but UNLESS - there was anti-aircraft or other weaponry on the top of or inside the building or there are armed combatants in the building. But that's just how the U.S. military rolls, Israel might be doing their own thing.

Israel is claiming that the building was being used by Hamas intelligence to coordinate attacks, using the press there as human shields.

To this point it's only an assertion, as they've proferred no proof that this is the case.

The other thing that's unique in this case is there is no formal government in Israel right now. I wonder how much they'd normally have some sort of oversite over the military.

Looks like Netanyahu has said fuck it, teach them a lesson (and yes, that means war crimes and human rights violations), the military said sure, and there's no one else in a position to calm it down. And of course Bibi has ulterior motives, as the crisis helps keep him in power, which is also keeping him from a trial over corruption.

I think Biden should get on the phone to tell them we are yanking aid to Israel if they don't call it off. It's all we really can do of actual impact.

Ah.

I mean, they destroyed a building where news agencies operate. Yes, it's good no one died (unlike the other attacks), but you don't see the inherent problem in targeting the news? That's right out of the Fascism 101 playbook.

https://imeu.org/article/extremism-incitement-to-racial-hatred-senior-israeli-officials-in-their-own
https://www.statista.com/chart/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/

I suppose if Al Qaeda had given an hours warning on 9/11 that would have been just fine.

I wonder just what the IDF would have to do for their apologists to be turned off.