Mrs. Obama: FINALLY Proud of Her Country?

I'm nowhere near as successful as she and her husband are, Raoul. Yet I'm proud of this country for overcoming our past and the work that's been done that laid the groundwork for them to go as far as they have. Yet her words seem to deny that there was anything good until she personally benefited.

Maybe that's not what she meant. Hopefully she'll find some way to clarify her remarks so they're not so offensive. But I don't really think she will.

Eh, who gives a shit.

Mountains out of molehills.

^ If not us, who? If not now, when? Oh, wait. nevermind. That's probably plagiarized, too...

I'm working to get ethical, honest people elected who are committed to reform. I've also run for office myself — and will probably do so again in the future. While I lost a major race in 2004, my opponent adopted a number of my proposals — so I have had some impact already and will continue to do.

Look, some things one doesn't need to experience personally to get facts about and to form a valid opinion on.

Neither of us needs to be slaves to say that wouldn't be a fate we'd wish on ourselves or others.

Dicky doesn't need to have sex to know that that's where babies come from or hold down a job to have gotten valid information on how to write a resume or what not.

And even if we are to assume Michelle Obama has never ever felt any form of racism because of the success that she's attained -- an obviously huge and baseless assumption -- she can make observe racism happening to others and/or other factors and decide that she's not particularly proud of the country.

As I said earlier, none of us (presumably) knows the inner-most details (and many of the outward details) of Michelle Obama's life.

It just seems presumptuous to look at the results of her life and conclude that she's never been affected by racism.

By that token, all the famous and successful African Americans haven't been affected by racism because they succeeded.

A. One's personal success or situation shouldn't be the only thing that controls whether one feels really proud of the country, IMO. If I were a billionaire under a dictatorship, I would have little to be proud of the country, and if I was a welfare case, I still might have various grounds to be proud of the U.S.

B. I think you and others are fundamentally misreadng her words/sentiments. I think she clearly meant that while she feels the same genuinely patriotic sentiments we all got as children, nothing has made her feel particularly proud as an adult till seeing how America has come together over a candidacy that many people thought was impossible or at least improbable.

Maybe it's something that others take as a given, but I and others thought that there was a good chance we wouldn't see a viable non-white male candidate for the presidency in the near future. That Americans by and large would be too hung up on race or sex or whatever to trust a politician that was different from the mold, regardless of his views, achievements, or other traits.

Even if she meant that she'd never been proud in the worst possible sense, why is that offensive?

Why can't reasonable people come to the conclusion, "When you weigh all the plusses and minuses of this country, I'm just not that proud of it?"

I find it interesting to see how many people, mostly those who lean to the left politically, defend her statement by either stating openly or else implying that they aren't particularly proud of our country, either.

And yet, if we say they aren't proud of their country, they get upset about it.

Could some of those of you who lean to the left explain this phenomenon?

But is this candidacy the first thing that really made you proud of America? Probably not.

Regardless, if nothing else, it highlights in my mind the relative youth and inexperience of both of them that they would OK this speech. She's only a little older than I am, though, and even I would know better than to deliver that soundbite.

It's one you've made up in your head?

Speaking personally, I wouldn't say that the success Obama has enjoyed so far, or even assuming he manages to win both the nomination and the presidency, would make me particularly "proud" so much as surprised.

Overall, I am proud of this country for various things, many if not most of which are from my childhood and earlier.

Then you come to the question of what one might mean by "really proud," which is what she apparently said and meant to say originally.

Sure, I feel patriotic every Fourth of July and Flag Day, and on most elections.

But is that just reflexive pride, or is it real pride based on adult reason?

I would say I've felt real pride in America a number of times as an adult over various things.

Different people might define real pride different ways. Is it real pride to be happy that our Olympic Hockey team beat down the Russkies? Is it OK to say "the ways that the country falls short diminishes my pride to the point where I can't say I'm 'really' proud"?

But whatever Michelle Obama's definition of real pride might be, I think it's unfair to say she's never found anything to be proud about. That's not what she said or even implied.

You're also neither black nor female.

When you've been told you can't vote, and you have to use the other water fountain, yet back to us.

Get back to me when you've asked either Obama or his wife that same thing. They've never experienced either.

I'm as qualified to speak of personal discrimination as they are and probably more so.

When have you been discriminated against because of your race? Or period?

And how do you know whether you're more qualified to speak on discrimination than Michelle or Barack Obama?

They haven't been denied the right to vote or drink from any water fountain they wanted to drink from. Neither have I. I'm as qualified as they are to speak of the types of discrimination that garamet mentioned.

Then I guess I'm more qualified than you are. I've been told "Great résumé, and we've enjoyed interviewing you. But we don't hire women for that position. It just wouldn't work out."

Michelle's a bit younger than me but, depending on where she grew up and what kinds of jobs she's applied for, she's likely heard something similar.

Not quite as bad as my first post-college visit to an employment agency, where every one of the male applicants was asked what his major was, and every woman in the waiting room was asked "How fast can you type?" but still...

Wow. Women and blacks couldn't vote in the 1980s? Who knew?

Do you work at being simple or does it just come naturally?

There you go again...

Changing the terms of your statement.

Now if you'd mentioned yourself as a target of gender discrimination, I'd have had to take a pass. I don't know what you've gone through though you are a good bit older than me or Mrs. Obama.

But I doubt very seriously that either of these upper middle-class background, highly educated and highly successful people are really qualified to tell me they've been discriminated against in any significant way. As a southerner, from lower middle-class roots and with a modest education, I'm feel that I'm definitely more qualified to speak about being looked down on than they are.

You didn't answer my question. You said you're "probably more" qualified to speak of personal discrimination.

How so?

As I said to garamet, the two of them probably haven't experienced much discrimination at all, particularly the two specifics she mentioned. I haven't been subjected to those two either but I have had discriminatory experiences in other areas. If I were to complain about someone holding me back, I certainly have more grounds to do so than they do.

Again, how do you know?

Maybe they are just more successful at overcoming the level of discrimination that they've faced than you have been at the level of discrimination you've faced.

That doesn't say that the level of discrimination they've faced is more, less, or just different than you.

It could be that they are just smarter or harder working or luckier than you and achieved in the face of greater discrimination.

It could be you had greater discrimination (but I doubt it, especially when you're apparently not willing or able to specify what discrimination you've faced).

Fucking no!


There, that's all that conversation should've been.

Maybe. That's why I qualified my original statement with "probably".

Undoubtedly. They've achieved quite a bit in their life, even coming from a good background and attending superior schools. Congratulations to them and God bless America for being a land where it's possible.

I've already given the broad outlines - you'll just have to read the posts again. I don't highlight the negative things in my life. I prefer to concentrate on the good. But everyone experiences a certain level of discrimination for different reasons. If it makes you stronger or an overall better person, then harboring a grudge against the world because of it is kind of senseless.

stupid board!

Was God blessing America not so long ago when it wasn't possible?

Well, unless you are a white person saying what a black person thinks about a black experience. Then there's no way to know.

What was the T-shirt? "It's a black thing. You wouldn't understand."

It was a fucking cultural meme.

Regardless, someone who speaks of something purely hypothetically instead of someone who has experienced it suffers from a lack of gravitas.

I never said she's never felt any kind of racism. That's one of those empty platitudes that I absolutely despise.

She will feel what she will feel, regardless of the reality of the situation.

But she certainly wasn't stopped from attaining education, success and wealth because of racism. That's indisputable. She has all of those things.

And of course she got her big break by getting a free ride to Princeton to learn black studies.

I'm absolutely sure I would have been discriminated against if I applied for that particular scholarship.

Good on her for doing well at the university and parlaying it into a law degree.

But in the name of stomping out discrimination, only some kinds of discrimination are allowed now.

Unless they can point out how they were denied opportunities because of racism, absolutely.

How they 'feel' about racism in the world is irrelevant. You can't alter their perceptions.

All you can do is ensure there is no institutional racism that denies them opportunities.

Yeah, knew the "oh, the poor oppressed white male!! ", shit would pop out of its gopher hole eventually.

What amazes me is how many otherwise intelligent people are spinning this as some sort of personal statement about the Obamas' individual success.

The Wordforge meme, "I've got mine and fuck the rest of you!" goes global.

Fascinating...

Just because some people said it even to the point of it being a cultural meme doesn't mean it's true, and certainly not true across the board.

There arguably are things you have to personally experience to understand.

The vast majority of things, however, you don't to have at least a basic understanding of them if you have an adequate amount of intelligence and empathy.

What you said was that she might be cognizant of what's affecting minorities but she hasn't suffered from it.

I use "suffer" and "felt" interchangeably. If you think there's some substantial difference, what do you mean?

If you didn't mean she hasn't suffered from racism, what did you mean?

Putting affirmative action and that whole debate aside, that she has education and all those things doesn't mean that she didn't experience racism.

It could simply mean she overcame it because she's that talented.

It also could be that despite her success, she would have been EVEN more successful if there was no racism or she had sidestepped it.

I don't really know too much about the details of her life. Nor, I submit, do you. So I

I'm not talking about just today's African Americans. I'm talking about down to people like George Washington Carver and so forth. They succeeded. Therefore by your logic, they were unaffected by racism.

If feelings are irrelevant, that should stop any debate about her feeling pride or lack thereof then.

Btw, though I'm late to this party: Where I come from, you can only feel pride in something for which you can take at least partial credit for. I see few, if any, things for which people are "proud of their country" in the posts in this thread that fit that bill. If your country is in a good state without any essential help from you, that's a reason to be happy, but not proud.