Polanski to face justice?

Zombie · Sep 28, 2009

RickDeckard said: ↑

Zombie said: ↑

RickDeckard said: ↑

Elwood said: ↑

I could be naive, but I think the fact that the Swiss arrested him at all means extradition will happen. Provided of course that the US wants him.
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Polanski can delay extradition if he fights it.
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Under what excuse would he fight it?

He was tried in a US court and found guilty. He skipped out of the country before the sentence hearing.

Delaying it will not stop it.
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He claims that the judge renaged on a plea bargain.
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That's what the appeals process is for.

He's guilty of the crime. He admitted it and plead guilty in open court.

Also I could be wrong but most judges are not bound by plea deals between the DA and the defendant.

frontline · Sep 28, 2009

I just saw this and....

Europeans, meanwhile, are shocked and dismayed that an internationally acclaimed artist could be jailed for such an old offense.

"To see him thrown to the lions and put in prison because of ancient history - and as he was traveling to an event honoring him - is absolutely horrifying," French Culture Minister FrÉdÉric Mitterrand said after Polanski was arrested upon arrival in Switzerland to attend the Zurich Film Festival, where he was to receive a lifetime achievement award. "There's an America we love and an America that scares us, and it's that latter America that has just shown us its face."
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Fuck you France. Apparently in France is you rape a 13 year old, but you are a celebrity you get a free pass and that makes America look ugly to them.

In comments that appeared to be directed at Swiss and American authorities to free Polanski, Mitterrand added that both he and French President Nicolas Sarkozy hoped for a "rapid resolution to the situation which would allow Roman Polanski to rejoin his family as quickly as possible."
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Again, fuck off France. The guy deserves to be set free so he can be with his family? He's a fucking pedo.

Polanski, who won an Academy Award in 2003 for directing The Pianist, admitted to having unlawful sexual intercourse with 13-year-old Samantha Geimer as part of a plea bargain in which other charges - including drugging and raping the girl - were dropped. However, fearful that the Los Angeles judge in the case was about to renege on the deal and slap him with a long prison sentence, Polanski fled the U.S. in 1978 and never returned. He has spent the past 30 years in France, where he has raised a family and continued his career unhindered. That is, until Saturday. Swiss police seized Polanski on an international warrant issued by U.S. authorities in 2005 and, under bilateral treaties, will now extradite him to the U.S. unless barred from doing so by Swiss courts.
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Awwwww the poor little powerful adored man. How terrible for him. So what if the judge was going to decide to cancel the plea bargain. Then all Polanski had to do was rescind his guilty plea. Any attorney could have worked that. So Im not buying the corrupt judge angle.

France never complied with the arrest warrant because its laws prohibit the extradition of its citizens to other countries. At the same time, many people in France have over the years downplayed the gravity of Polanski's crime because of his immense talent and artistry as a director. The 76-year-old, who was born in France, has increasingly been seen as the victim of an obsessive U.S. justice system that is ready to pluck him up and drag him off to prison at any moment...."The French view Polanski as an artist and celebrity and feel he deserves a different kind of treatment than ordinary people, which just isn't an option in the U.S.," says Ted Stanger, an author and longtime resident of France who has written extensively on the differing public views and attitudes across the Atlantic. "The French in particular, and Europeans in general, don't understand why it isn't possible for American officials to intervene and say, 'Hey, it's been over 30 years and things look a little different now. Let's just forget this thing.' "
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Like I said, if you are popular enough its ok to be a pedo in France. Ya know when it comes to morality some folks would say Im an abomination. So you know that when Im saying something is wrong, it is. The French are fucking insane.

"To the French mind, this has made Polanski a combination of Oscar Wilde and Alfred Dreyfus - the victim of systematic persecution,"
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Yep, insane and retarded.

Caboose · Sep 28, 2009

"To see him thrown to the lions and put in prison because of ancient history - and as he was traveling to an event honoring him - is absolutely horrifying," French Culture Minister FrÉdÉric Mitterrand said after Polanski was arrested upon arrival in Switzerland to attend the Zurich Film Festival, where he was to receive a lifetime achievement award.
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Yep, he recieved his "award" alright. He managed to dodge this for thirty fucking years, I am pleased to see his ego finally did him in.
I am also pleased to see this not swept under the rug, he needs to attone for this.
If anyone gets their drawers bunched up about it they really need to consider where their sense of right and wrong lie.

We certianly see where the "Cultural Minister" for the entire country stands.

Muad Dib · Sep 28, 2009

Maybe he'll wind up in the same cell with Phil Spector.

Dr. Drake Ramoray · Sep 29, 2009

Muad Dib said: ↑

Maybe he'll wind up in the same cell with Phil Spector.
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I'd almost rather see him forced to live in that tent city in Georgia in the woods....

Volpone · Sep 29, 2009

Dr. Drake Ramoray said: ↑

Muad Dib said: ↑

Maybe he'll wind up in the same cell with Phil Spector.
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I'd almost rather see him forced to live in that tent city in Georgia in the woods....
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OHMIGOD!!!!111

That's the next Fox reality show: "Celebrity Felon Survivor"

"We took Phil Spector, OJ Simpson, Lil' Kim (or is she out now?), and Roman Polanski, and sent them to live in the woods in Georgia. Watch them compete for immunity challenges and see who gets voted out of the tent city. Tuesdays at 8. Only on Fox."

CaptainChewbacca · Sep 29, 2009

Someone else came up with the perfect response to the 'but... he's an artist!' crowd:

Michael Seitzman (screenwriter for North Country)

Awesomeness:

Some of the get-out-of-jail-free crowd thinks that the reason Polanski should go free is because he's a gifted artist. Okay, I'll accept the premise. Maybe you're right. Instead of an Oscar we should let the Best Director fuck your kids.
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When you put it like that, there's really no defending him.

Dr. Drake Ramoray · Sep 29, 2009

"Leave Roman alone!"

Ebeneezer Goode · Sep 29, 2009

"The French view Polanski as an artist and celebrity and feel he deserves a different kind of treatment than ordinary people, which just isn't an option in the U.S.,"
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Libertie, Egalitie, Fraternitie

Perhaps the frogs have forgotten the bolded part?

Ebeneezer Goode · Sep 29, 2009

Oh, and as for it being 'ancient history', they sure as shit remember us sinking their navy and bombing their coast during the occupation... Guess they're a tad selective in which bits of history people should get uppity over!

Ebeneezer Goode · Sep 29, 2009

For those wondering why it took so long arrest him

It was his own fucking lawyers! They tried to get the charges dismissed by claiming that by not attempting to have him extradited, then the law obviously wasn't taking it seriously.

So LA promptly went and asked the Swiss to arrest him

Best shoot-self-in-foot moment of the year?

mlong · Sep 29, 2009

The way the Hollywood left is defending him is just outrageous..Whoopie Goldberg said it wasn't "Rape-rape"..(what the fuck dose that mean?)..others like Woody Allen are signing a petition demanding his release..(ok I can understand why he would support Polanski).

On the Liberal Huffington Post they had many postings in his defense..one with the title “Roman Polanski understands women"..(are you fucking kidding me?)..but to their credit most of the readers there aren't buying it and are revolting against the HP.

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/c...oes-all-in-to-defend-polanski-readers-revolt/

It seems that the Left in Hollywood and some Liberals in general are arguing there should be double standards in the way the law deals with sexual offenders and child rapists.

If your a hot 30 something female Teacher and sleep with a 13yr old boy..it's OK!!

If you a 30 something guy who gose to sleep with with a 13yo girl you think you met on line..your a pervert and a Predator.

If your a 40 something Oscar winning movie director and drug and anally rape a 13yo girl..it's OK!

If your a 40 something Roman priest and have sex with a 13yo Choirboy..your a pedophile.

Hey it's simple SEX WITH ANYONE UNDER 17 ISN"T OK!!!(unless your under 17 yourself and even then there are some no no's in that area).

CaptainChewbacca · Sep 29, 2009

Great Article

Monday, Sept. 28, 2009 06:29 PDT
Reminder: Roman Polanski raped a child

Roman Polanski raped a child. Let's just start right there, because that's the detail that tends to get neglected when we start discussing whether it was fair for the bail-jumping director to be arrested at age 76, after 32 years in "exile" (which in this case means owning multiple homes in Europe, continuing to work as a director, marrying and fathering two children, even winning an Oscar, but never -- poor baby -- being able to return to the U.S.). Let's keep in mind that Roman Polanski gave a 13-year-old girl a Quaalude and champagne, then raped her, before we start discussing whether the victim looked older than her 13 years, or that she now says she'd rather not see him prosecuted because she can't stand the media attention. Before we discuss how awesome his movies are or what the now-deceased judge did wrong at his trial, let's take a moment to recall that according to the victim's grand jury testimony, Roman Polanski instructed her to get into a jacuzzi naked, refused to take her home when she begged to go, began kissing her even though she said no and asked him to stop; performed cunnilingus on her as she said no and asked him to stop; put his penis in her vagina as she said no and asked him to stop; asked if he could penetrate her anally, to which she replied, "No," then went ahead and did it anyway, until he had an orgasm.

Can we do that? Can we take a moment to think about all that, and about the fact that Polanski pled guilty to unlawful sex with a minor, before we start talking about what a victim he is? Because that would be great, and not nearly enough people seem to be doing it.

The French press, for instance (at least according to the British press) is describing Polanski "as the victim of a money-grabbing American mother and a publicity-hungry Californian judge." Joan Z. Shore at the Huffington Post, who once met Polanski and "was utterly charmed by [his] sobriety and intelligence," also seems to believe that a child with an unpleasant stage mother could not possibly have been raped: "The 13-year old model 'seduced' by Polanski had been thrust onto him by her mother, who wanted her in the movies." Oh, well, then! If her mom put her into that situation, that makes it much better! Shore continues: "The girl was just a few weeks short of her 14th birthday, which was the age of consent in California. (It's probably 13 by now!) Polanski was demonized by the press, convicted, and managed to flee, fearing a heavy sentence."

Wow, OK, let's break that down. First, as blogger Jeff Fecke says, "Fun fact: the age of consent in 1977 in California was 16. It's now 18. But of course, the age of consent isn't like horseshoes or global thermonuclear war; close doesn't count. Even if the age of consent had been 14, the girl wasn't 14." Also, even if the girl had been old enough to consent, she testified that she did not consent. There's that. Though of course everyone makes a bigger deal of her age than her testimony that she did not consent, because if she'd been 18 and kept saying no while he kissed her, licked her, screwed her and sodomized her, this would almost certainly be a whole different story -- most likely one about her past sexual experiences and drug and alcohol use, about her desire to be famous, about what she was wearing, about how easy it would be for Roman Polanski to get consensual sex, so hey, why would he need to rape anyone? It would quite possibly be a story about a wealthy and famous director who pled not guilty to sexual assault, was acquitted on "she wanted it" grounds, and continued to live and work happily in the U.S. Which is to say that 30 years on, it would not be a story at all. So it's much safer to focus on the victim's age removing any legal question of consent than to get tied up in that thorny "he said, she said" stuff about her begging Polanski to stop and being terrified of him.

Second, Polanski was "demonized by the press" because he raped a child, and was convicted because he pled guilty. He "feared heavy sentencing" because drugging and raping a child is generally frowned upon by the legal system. Shore really wants us to pity him because of these things? (And, I am not making this up, boycott the entire country of Switzerland for arresting him.)

As ludicrous as Shore's post is, I have to agree with Fecke that my favorite Polanski apologist is the Washington Post's Anne Applebaum, who finds it "bizarre" that anyone is still pursuing this case. And who also, by the by, failed to disclose the tiny, inconsequential detail that her husband, Polish foreign minister Radoslaw Sikorski, is actively pressuring U.S. authorities to drop the case.

There is evidence of judicial misconduct in the original trial. There is evidence that Polanski did not know her real age. Polanski, who panicked and fled the U.S. during that trial, has been pursued by this case for 30 years, during which time he has never returned to America, has never returned to the United Kingdom., has avoided many other countries, and has never been convicted of anything else. He did commit a crime, but he has paid for the crime in many, many ways: In notoriety, in lawyers' fees, in professional stigma. He could not return to Los Angeles to receive his recent Oscar. He cannot visit Hollywood to direct or cast a film.
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There is also evidence that Polanski raped a child. There is evidence that the victim did not consent, regardless of her age. There is evidence -- albeit purely anecdotal, in this case -- that only the most debased crapweasel thinks "I didn't know she was 13!" is a reasonable excuse for raping a child, much less continuing to rape her after she's said no repeatedly. There is evidence that the California justice system does not hold that "notoriety, lawyers' fees and professional stigma" are an appropriate sentence for child rape.

But hey, he wasn't allowed to pick up his Oscar in person! For the love of all that's holy, hasn't the man suffered enough?

Granted, Roman Polanski has indeed suffered a great deal in his life, which is where Applebaum takes her line of argument next:

He can be blamed, it is true, for his original, panicky decision to flee. But for this decision I see mitigating circumstances, not least an understandable fear of irrational punishment. Polanski's mother died in Auschwitz. His father survived Mauthausen. He himself survived the Krakow ghetto, and later emigrated from communist Poland.
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Surviving the Holocaust certainly could lead to an "understandable fear of irrational punishment," but being sentenced for pleading guilty to child rape is basically the definition of rational punishment. Applebaum then points out that Polanski was a suspect in the murder of his pregnant wife, Sharon Tate, a crime actually committed by the Manson family -- but again, that was the unfortunate consequence of a perfectly rational justice system. Most murdered pregnant women were killed by husbands or boyfriends, so that suspicion was neither personal nor unwarranted. This isn't Kafkaesque stuff.

But what of the now-45-year-old victim, who received a settlement from Polanski in a civil case, saying she'd like to see the charges dropped? Shouldn't we be honoring her wishes above all else?

In a word, no. At least, not entirely. I happen to believe we should honor her desire not to be the subject of a media circus, which is why I haven't named her here, even though she chose to make her identity public long ago. But as for dropping the charges, Fecke said it quite well: "I understand the victim's feelings on this. And I sympathize, I do. But for good or ill, the justice system doesn't work on behalf of victims; it works on behalf of justice."

It works on behalf of the people, in fact -- the people whose laws in every state make it clear that both child rape and fleeing prosecution are serious crimes. The point is not to keep 76-year-old Polanski off the streets or help his victim feel safe. The point is that drugging and raping a child, then leaving the country before you can be sentenced for it, is behavior our society should not -- and at least in theory, does not -- tolerate, no matter how famous, wealthy or well-connected you are, no matter how old you were when you finally got caught, no matter what your victim says about it now, no matter how mature she looked at 13, no matter how pushy her mother was, and no matter how many really swell movies you've made.

Roman Polanski raped a child. No one, not even him, disputes that. Regardless of whatever legal misconduct might have gone on during his trial, the man admitted to unlawful sex with a minor. But the Polanski apologism we're seeing now has been heating up since "Roman Polanski: Wanted and Desired," the 2008 documentary about Polanski's fight to get the conviction dismissed. Writing in Salon, Bill Wyman criticized the documentary's whitewashing of Polanksi's crimes last February, after Superior Court Judge Peter Espinoza ruled that if the director wanted to challenge the conviction, he'd need to turn himself in to U.S. authorities and let the justice system sort it out. "Fugitives don't get to dictate the terms of their case ... Polanski deserves to have any potential legal folderol investigated, of course. But the fact that Espinoza had to state the obvious is testimony to the ways in which the documentary, and much of the media coverage the director has received in recent months, are bizarrely skewed."

The reporting on Polanski's arrest has been every bit as "bizarrely skewed," if not more so. Roman Polanski may be a great director, an old man, a husband, a father, a friend to many powerful people, and even the target of some questionable legal shenanigans. He may very well be no threat to society at this point. He may even be a good person on balance, whatever that means. But none of that changes the basic, undisputed fact: Roman Polanski raped a child. And rushing past that point to focus on the reasons why we should forgive him, pity him, respect him, admire him, support him, whatever, is absolutely twisted.
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Excellent cutting-through-bullshit.

Muad Dib · Sep 29, 2009

ecky said: ↑

For those wondering why it took so long arrest him

It was his own fucking lawyers! They tried to get the charges dismissed by claiming that by not attempting to have him extradited, then the law obviously wasn't taking it seriously.

So LA promptly went and asked the Swiss to arrest him

Best shoot-self-in-foot moment of the year?
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It doesn't get any better than that unless it's a Darwin Award.

Tamar Garish · Sep 30, 2009

France drops support for Polanski

Posted 5 hours 2 minutes ago
Roman Polanski
The French government has dropped its public support for Roman Polanski, saying the Oscar-winning director held in Switzerland over a three-decade-old child sex case is not "above the law."

"Roman Polanski is neither above nor beneath the law," government spokesman Luc Chatel said.

"We have a judicial procedure under way for a serious affair - the rape of a minor - on which the American and Swiss legal systems are doing their job," he said, adding: "One can understand the emotion that this belated arrest, more than 30 years after the incident, and the method of the arrest have caused."

Polanski fled the United States in 1978 before sentencing, having pleaded guilty to unlawful sexual intercourse with a 13-year-old girl.

He was arrested at the weekend as he arrived in Zurich to collect a film festival award.

The French government had earlier this week expressed outrage over the arrest, with Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner calling on US authorities to allow Polanski to be freed.

Culture Minister Frederic Mitterrand called the arrest of the Franco-Polish filmmaker, who lives in Paris, "absolutely horrifying" and said it showed "a side of America which is frightening."

Mr Chatel, asked by reporters to comment on the Culture Minister's reaction, said: "Frederic Mitterrand was speaking from the heart."

Switzerland says Polanski is being held under an international alert issued by the United States in 2005.

Polanski can launch several appeals, so a final extradition decision could take weeks or months.
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It's the back-peddling Tour De France!

Dr. Krieg · Sep 30, 2009

God dammit, France.

Ash · Sep 30, 2009

This is one of those issues that I would expect everyone to agree on. Polanski's defenders must be aliens or something.

Tamar Garish · Sep 30, 2009

Ash said: ↑

This is one of those issues that I would expect everyone to agree on. Polanski's defenders must be aliens or something.
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The aliens among us...

HOLLYWOOD, Calif. — Roman Polanski still has plenty of support in Hollywood.

More than 100 stars in the entertainment industry, including Martin Scorsese and Woody Allen, have signed a petition calling for the director's release from a Swiss prison after he was jailed over the weekend over a statutory rape conviction dating back to the 1970s.

Others who signed the free Polanski petition include David Lynch, Michael Mann, Darren Aronofsky, Terry Gilliam, Harvey Weinstein, Tilda Swinton and Monica Bellucci.

Polanski was arrested while en route to accept a lifetime achievement award from the Zurich International Film Festival. U.S. authorities are hoping to extradite the 76-year-old star, who has managed to escape sentencing for more than 30 years. In 1978, he was charged with drugging and then having unlawful sex with a 13-year-old girl. The charges were later dropped as part of a plea bargain, with the director admitting to a lesser charge of unlawful sex with a minor.

The victim in the case, Samantha Geimer, has publicly said that she has already forgiven Polanski and feels he has been treated unfairly. Geimer, now a mother of four, also believes Polanski should remain free. However, not everyone shares that opinion, including singer-songwriter Jewel.

"Polanski-admitted raping a 13 yr old-whys every1 in the arts upset hes facing jail? cause hes a gifted director? what am i missing?" she wondered Wednesday on her Twitter page.
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Source.

Tamar Garish · Sep 30, 2009

This is the actual testimony of the victim during the trial.

What a guy he is

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0610081polanski29.html

oldfella1962 · Oct 1, 2009

More than 100 stars in the entertainment industry, including Martin Scorsese and Woody Allen, have signed a petition calling for the director's release from a Swiss prison after he was jailed over the weekend over a statutory rape conviction dating back to the 1970s.
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Yeah.....Woody Allen is a great example of robbing the cradle creepiness.

Asyncritus · Oct 1, 2009

Tamar Garish said: ↑

However, not everyone shares that opinion, including singer-songwriter Jewel.

"Polanski-admitted raping a 13 yr old-whys every1 in the arts upset hes facing jail? cause hes a gifted director? what am i missing?" she wondered Wednesday on her Twitter page.
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Jewel is Baba!

14thDoctor · Oct 1, 2009

Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.

El Chup · Oct 1, 2009

14thDoctor said: ↑

Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.
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Fuck off you moron.

YOu Jail him because if you commit the crime you do the time. No exceptions.

Plenty of people have had a hard life, but if a holocaust survivor came along and murdered your mother I know as sure as the nose on my face that you'd be screaming for a life sentence, or maybe even the death penalty.

14thDoctor · Oct 1, 2009

El Chup said: ↑

14thDoctor said: ↑

Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.
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Fuck off you moron.

YOu Jail him because if you commit the crime you do the time. No exceptions.
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Aren't you a lawyer? You know that's not how it works in practice.

Plenty of people have had a hard life, but if a holocaust survivor came along and murdered your mother I know as sure as the nose on my face that you'd be screaming for a life sentence, or maybe even the death penalty.
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If my dead mother told me she didn't want to press charges anymore, I'd probably let it drop.

Lanzman · Oct 1, 2009

14thDoctor said: ↑

Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.
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You're coming perilously close to convincing me that you are, in fact, Too Stupid To Live.

mlong · Oct 1, 2009

People try to use the excuse that he's a Holocaust survivor and the husband of a murder victim as reasons it's ok for him to get away with raping a 13yo girl..well I think it's because of those 2 things he should have been the last person to do something like that to another human being knowing the great pain it causes the victim and their family.

And since even with that history he still did it....he should face the full measure of the punishment he deserves.

Ash · Oct 1, 2009

14thDoctor said: ↑

El Chup said: ↑

14thDoctor said: ↑

Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.
Click to expand...

Fuck off you moron.

YOu Jail him because if you commit the crime you do the time. No exceptions.
Click to expand...

Aren't you a lawyer? You know that's not how it works in practice.
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Are you an idiot? You KNOW that evading the law for a long time doesn't negate your debt, right? The man is just as guilty today as he was the day he committed the crime. Are you seriously suggesting that if a criminal can evade capture for a long enough time then the justice system should just say "fair play to the rapist" and drop it? What. The. Fuck.

Tamar Garish · Oct 1, 2009

14thDoctor said: ↑

Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.
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You are sick in the head or something.

Besides...the victim and her opinion is irrelevant. She was the plaintiff in the civil case. It is The People and The State he is answering to now.

The fact she forgives him now is probably helpful for her moving on...but it is not retroactive permission nor does it undo the fact that this man plied a child with booze and drugs and raped her and then fled justice.

Creating a precedent where if you elude your sentence long enough it gets dropped and you are exonerated is so wrong on so many levels that I can't believe anyone sensible can advocate it.

Uncle Albert · Oct 1, 2009

Tamar Garish said: ↑

This is the actual testimony of the victim during the trial.

What a guy he is

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0610081polanski29.html
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Holy hell, that sure made my fucking skin crawl.

Ten Lubak · Oct 1, 2009

He could have made the best movie ever (UHF) and should still be punished for his crime. It's pretty sickening that there are people coming out in support of him.

This is a cowardly child rapist who got the harsher charges against him dropped and basically a slap on wrist as punishment and still fled the country.

The only thing that pisses me off about this is that he wasn't caught sooner.

Originally Posted by 14thDoctor
Meh. It's been 30 years, the victim doesn't give a fuck anymore... what's the point of throwing him in jail now? To send a message to all the other rapey American directors hiding out in France?

Besides, his pregnant wife was murdered. I think the universe owes him one.
Click to expand...

Jesus Christ. What a piece of work you've become. You aren't even playing devil's advocate anymore, you're playing Devil's fucking idiot.

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