Brexit now leading by 10 points

Now I'm wondering if you're part dog...

It does. People are nowhere near as patriotic as they once where. You see people waving flags and celebrating Jubilees and jump to the erroneous conclusion they're all solid dyed-in-the-wool British-til-I-die types. It's bollocks.

People like to blow off steam, and if the event providing the foundations for that happens to be a patriotic event, it need not follow the participants are taking part for that reason. You see two sets and make a circle out of them.

Even the middled-aged people I encounter are a lot more outward looking these days, increased travel and knowledge-bases like the internet have eroded the inward-looking, red-white-and-blue, British bulldog-to-the-core types into a small minority.

Not at all, I just have little tolerance for facile, rose-tinted and self-centred views of the UK past.

@Dan Leach - do you actually have your own opinion, or have you generated it from Facebook posts?

Basically, what I'm asking, is if you're any different from the idiots who've based their opinion from the articles in the right-wing press?

And didn't we used to mock posters who just parroted other peoples opinions?

Whoever made that poster needs to get out of political PR, right now. You don't convince cynical, disillusioned people, who are afraid of government overreach, and likely leaning right a bit more than left, by starting off with animal rights, continuing through the vague 'anti-racism' and the suspect 'arts funding' down to the purely ominous 'solidarity'.

Count the billions lost in trade. Count the jobs you're about to lose. Point out the threat of inflation, and the more distant but ultimately decisive spectre of war.

It's almost certainly a Green Party meme, so with that in mind it's contents aren't surprising.

Oh, and can we please drop this ridiculous "specture of war" bullshit? This whole notion that the continent is going to descend into war with the UK is farcical.

If this breaks the EU, why would Europe be in a different place than it had been for 500 years before that?

Because we live in a far more globalised world that we did in 1939. The risk is significantly lower.

The point is that if there is break up of the EU, which is most certainly unlikely if the UK leaves, it does not mean there is a significant increase of war by default. Conversely, treaties, such as the EU, have never been enough in the history of man to stop a war if there's really going to be one. Finally, a Brexit doesn't mean an exit from NATO, which is arguably as important a union, if not more so, than the EU when it comes to questions of war and security, not least because the UK would remain one of the nuclear states within it, along with France.

So please, this hysterical idea that a Brexit means the spectre of war has suddenly appeared out of nowhere is desperately ill thought out and just more bullshit fearmongering. At most it would slightly move the goalposts.

You're delusional. If the UK leaves the EU you'll have rampant cannibalism in many parts of England and Scotland just like there was under the Clinton Administration. Britain pretty much only exists as a vacation stop between Paris and New York. How will British aerospace companies like Rolls Royce stay competitive if they're not sucked into partnerships with French and Italian firms? Without an alliance with Romania, how could London stumble on? You need the EU to set wetlands policies so you keep your flood plains flooding like they're supposed to.

Your "humour" and poor attempts at sarcasm get worse by the day.

And yet the truth remains. If the EU hadn't been launched, you'd have more currencies to deal with, maybe a few more backwards regions that didn't get forced to revamp some of their social, welfare, employment, and budget policies, but overall, would someone in America be able to tell the two timelines apart if they didn't know to check for particular coinage?

Everyone in Europe would still be trading. Everyone in Europe would still be vacationing in other countries. People would still travel pretty freely. I'll bet the US TSA is a bigger hassle than most inter-European border crossings ever were. Did you folks have to strip off your shoes, go through metal detectors and get randomly shunted off to a room for cavity searches? We now have to do that to get from Cleveland to Dallas.

But if the borders are all going back up, in spades, what's the point, shared suffering under the Muslim invasion that the EU created as a matter of policy? When it comes to externally driven social change, people feel a need to have a veto on it. If that veto is denied, people compensate for the lack of power by asserting what little they have as hard as they can. The EU didn't recognize that and became wedded to the problem it had enabled.

Most people don't want to saddle their kids with a multi-generational ethnic/religious conflict in their own home town, particularly one that's not of their making, and they especially don't like to be lectured on inclusiveness as they become outsiders in their own neighborhoods, victims of elites bent on virtue signalling and totally divorced from reality.

As for the remain campaign, Obama flew over and stuck his foot in it, and as I've warned, he polarizes any issue he addresses. It's who he is and what he does. If you had him address the Irish troubles you'd have the IRA shooting mothers in the back of the head inside of month. Instead he hectored Britain about how stupid they would be to leave the EU. No doubt he sent many of his top political consultants to the leave campaign, just as he sent his best campaign people to unseat Netanyahu during the last Israeli election. They have a toxic touch.

That poster serves one purpose, making anti-Brexit intellectuals feel smug about themselves, while annoying everybody else. It reminds me quite a bit of the Sanders stuff I've seen over the past few months.

For fuck's sake, of COURSE they say that. Rattling the saber and puffing out their chests is what tinpot dictatorships DO.

I realize there's a segment of the American Right that confuses macho posturing with actual strength, and isn't happy unless we're running around beating our chests, bellowing vague omnidirectional belligerence at the rest of the world, and just generally waving our American penises at everyone.

But to mistake Iran's posturing for an actual indicator of American status requires either (a) abject stupidity, or (b) deliberate dishonesty.​

I recall Iraqi officials twice boasting that they could defeat the US in a war. I don't know what is funnier, the boasts, or the idiot Americans who believe them.

Long on bluster, short on evidence I'm afraid. Surveys reveal that 80%+ British people are either very or fairly patriotic, whereas a mere 5% or 6% affirm that they're not patriotic at all. All the main national institutions, with the exception of the Church of England, are as strong as ever. It's true that young people are less patriotic than old people, but I wonder whether that's because they get their information, and thus a decent portion of their worldview, from different sources, or simply that young people flirt more with radical ideas before (mostly) becoming more conservative as they age. Perhaps it's a bit of both. But in any case, most young people, like most British people, are patriotic, and that is very unlikely to change in the near future.

Yes, only Sanders does seem to have found new audiences that way -- first time voters mostly. That poster is the worst kind of preaching to the choir: It wins nothing from the home crowd already persuaded, but can lose you other factions' support. It most reminds me of Romney's 47 percent comment.

Yes, and the EU is part of globalization, and leaving it sets globalization back in favour of national isolation.

Feeble response, which has it baring on the claim that Brexit puts us on the path to war. Try again.

Britain's elites ignore the masses at their peril.

Somehow, over the last half-century, Western elites managed to convince themselves that nationalism was not real. Perhaps it had been real in the past, like cholera and telegraph machines, but now that we were smarter and more modern, it would be forgotten in the due course of time as better ideas supplanted it.

That now seems hopelessly naive. People do care more about people who are like them -- who speak their language, eat their food, share their customs and values. And when elites try to ignore those sentiments -- or banish them by declaring that they are simply racist -- this doesn’t make the sentiments go away. It makes the non-elites suspect the elites of disloyalty. For though elites may find something vaguely horrifying about saying that you care more about people who are like you than you do about people who are culturally or geographically further away, the rest of the population is outraged by the never-stated corollary: that the elites running things feel no greater moral obligation to their fellow countrymen than they do to some random stranger in another country. And perhaps we can argue that this is the morally correct way to feel -- but if it is truly the case, you can see why ordinary folks would be suspicious about allowing the elites to continue to exercise great power over their lives.​

The EU elites showed they care more for economic migrants than their local populations, and that makes the local population very uncomfortable. Instead of reassurances they got lectures and deceit.

American who knows nothing about UK posts article by American who knows nothing about the UK and finds himself in agreement.

We voted Brexit over two centuries ago. Do you really think Croatians, French, and Germans should have more say over English life than English, Canadians, and Australians?

Do you really think that non sequiturs are going to elicit a serious response?

Don't worry, "Remain" will squeak by with 1 or 2 percent. Gotta make it look good, ya know.

You Brits think you actually have a choice. By hook or by crook, the EU will use ya'll to cushion themselves during its implosion.

Seriously. That poster is just preaching to the retarded. Like Dan Leach.

When I see that poster the first thing I ask: "The UK can't do any of that? The UK hasn't done any of that? Why does the UK need the EU to do that stuff?"

. . . through the air, anyway.

-- which includes social engineering --

Not feeble; it is the whole of the point.

Well, I don't agree with half of what 's on the meme, but why do we care about human rights?

I dunno. Maybe the Holocaust and other genocides. Maybe Soviet oppression. Maybe the human rights abusers in waiting like Donald J Trump.

There are many criticisms of the EU that I will readily back, not least the need for major reform, but only a fool would ignore the major post WW2 strides in civil liberties that a more united Europe helped to forge...along with your very own nation.

That's just rediculous. Just because the UK leaves the EU doesn't make it isolationist. I'm so sick of people throwing that word around, it's a load of crap.

Oh please. You're even doing a Dayton. Cherry picking which bits to reply to because you have no response to the rest.