California Funds Nation's First Inmate Sex Change Surgery

it's not controversial, but it is poorly thought through unless you are willing to apply it consistently.
To repeat the analogy that few here have been willing to address:

Lets say that a few doors down from the person you object to here, there's a prisoner with a herniated disk in their lower back. The condition is not life threatening, it will not lead to other more serious conditions - but the prisoner is in constant substantial pain because of the condition. Do you argue that if said prisoner wanted treatment they should not have committed a fucking crime? This is the chance they took when they murdered or whatever? If so, then your position is consistent and I can only tell you that in this country, the SCOTUS has strongly affirmed that allowing the prisoner to suffer constitutes unconstitutional cruel and unusual punishment and the state has an obligation to remedy it.

I can't speak to what the courts have held in the UK

BUT

if you say the person with the painful back should receive treatment and the trans person should not, then the inescapable direct logical conclusion is that the trans person doesn't have a REAL condition that causes REAL suffering. This is an incorrect conclusion The reason trans people argue for this scumbag being treated is not because we want the scumbag to be privileged over someone like me who'll never afford it, but because the implication that there is not real suffering from a real condition delegitimizes ALL trans people. Now to be sure, this particular individual MIGHT be lying - but that's what you pa y the doctors to sort out. Besides, if this person is a sexual predator, removing the old nuts is a damned good way to tame those instincts.

Also. It's Brietbart.

I've seen some more reliable sources that say that the claims are tabloid rumors which have not been independently verified. If, I dunno, Rueters or the BBC had the story they might have verified it. In any case, if said person IS lying they should be caught out - they should have to go through the same diagnostic process as any other applicant and by reputation the NHS isn't exactly passing out transition treatment like Oprah. I do NOT support the system being gamed. But I do not trust the source at all.

You have a denial of reality problem. That is simply a faith relay of what happened even if it upsets you.

You can't argue the facts, are either too lazy or too stupid to follow the links to the original sources and then foolishly think you can hand wave away facts you do not like. That is both sad and pathetic.

you act as If I am unfamiliar with this case and never heard of it before.

Which would be an error on your part.

If that were true then you wouldn't have tried to ignore facts and instead simply attack the source (for which there are numerous independent confirmations), huh?

What pain is the prisoner in? Not physical. Yes, he may be going through mental anguish, but as far as im aware he is not asking for an expensive treatment to deal with the mental anguish and demons he will have through torturing and killing someone. Once he works through those issues and pays his debt to society, then yea, im happy for him to get his reasignment surgery.

It may sound harsh, but he's in jail for torture and murder. He's not off to a holiday camp, he's not a misunderstood soul, he's a bad cunt!

Fuck 'em!

*just saw that you are questionning Dinners links. Im basing the above on what i have read but do conceed that Dinners right wing sources may not always be accurate. May explain why i have not heard of the Scottish situation.

To be fair, most of Dinner's left wing sources are faulty too.

The guy with a herniated disc will have a hell of time making it in prison. The ability to walk and function is important to do their jobs and avoid being a target.

Having your genitalia switched out doesn't serve those same interests. You're not allowed to use your genitalia in prison (aside from peeing).

none of which you saw fit to cite in order to make a more credible point.

Besides, if the Brits had given the alleged sex machine even an orchi, they could have solved that problem with minimal fuss.

fact remains, if they had said to that guy "piss off" and he had sued claiming the pain as a reason, every court in the land would have sided with him per SCOTUS

The state's interest in his mobility wouldn't have even been an issue in court.

I get the whole "fuck the bad seed" sentiment 100% - not disputing it.

What I am disputing is that the sort of pain trans people go through - the sort that frankly makes about half of us choose to prefer death by our own hands as endure it - is as legitimate as any other sort of pain.

When the government via the prison system says "your pain is not real enough for us to be concerned with" they are sending that message not just to the prisons, but to ALL of society, the schools, the health care system, private insurers, and on and on. As much as it pains me, delegitimizing the need of that prisoner in California deligitimizes ME.

And as much as people like to think of themselves as not being as backwards as the Evangelical Pharisees who's animosity towards us is naked and worn with pride, all those folks "in the middle" who say "I don't have anything against trans people BUT..." almost always follow that 'but' with a sentiment that logically implies "your shit ain't legit, I'm just too nice a person to come out and say so"

I don't think it's intentional, or bourne of animosity most of the time, it's just a reflection of a rather traditional point of view that usually hasn't been thought through to a logical conclusion.

For a non-prison example, you can add trans care to an insurance plan, state or private, and a certain percentage of folks will say "I don't care what you do to your dick but I don't want to pay for it."

You can show the skeptic that the cost comes out to a few cents per year for each insured (or taxpayer) and he'll still bitch about those few cents, you can even point out that the cost of treatment is cheaper than the cost of therapy and such for life, and care for them after they try suicide (sometimes repeatedly), and he STILL bitches. Because he has this instinctive knee-jerk disapproval of anyone who'd let their privates be cut on. Rational arguments often can't combat that instinct.

I don't buy the herniated disc back argument, it's pretty flimsy. Physical pain vs no physical pain. Don't know why Nova keeps going back to it but nova has proven she'll say anything when it comes to this subject.

Mental pain? Sure, I might buy that. But it's prison, literally everyone in prison is under some sort of mental duress.

Speculative enough. Aside from one state court in Massachusetts that rules for a prisoner sex change (on an attrocious record) what other courts have made similar rulings.

you don't buy it because you've never experienced it.

Again, there's a reason that half or more of people born with this condition attempt to end their own life rather than suffer it.

are you comprehending my comment?

I'm not saying the court would always have supported GRS - I'm saying that SCOTUS has estabished long ago that medical treatment is the obligation of the state and neglecting it is "cruel and unusual punishment" so, if the guy with the bad back had been forced to sue, he would certainly have won.

Because, despite the PC police changing definitions they are all severely mentally ill?

Oh, wait, we don't speak that truth do we?

PC = "that which disagrees with my prefered views"

Not a convincing counter argument.

With the exception of religiously motivated objectors, the entire scientific and medical community as represented by their professional organizations, recognizes being transsexual as a physiological condition present from birth.

Those still clinging to "mental illness" are uniformly religiously motivated or have no experiential or professional standing to have their view respected.

Yours is an example of the malady that plagues debate in this country - everyone, no matter how ignorant, insist THEIR opinion is every bit as valid as an informed opinion.

Nova, most reasonable people in this thread agree with you on the mental issues people who are born trans are going through. Thats not the question or issue here.

You really do need to take a step back. Yes, we get it, you are going through your own issues and have a more literal, first hand understanding of the subject than any of us ever will. That is not up for argument. But look at yourself, you have picked up the gauntlet of fighting for trans people and are now running with it so far that you are now defending some of the most evil types of people. Those convicted of torture and murder.

I believe it is pretty difficult to get a sex change procedure in the US on lower/reduced incomes? I wont/cant quote your br posts but i dont think it is something that is easy to get. You can't start handing out prizes for murder.

To be clear - and to repeat previously stated positions:

I am NOT defending the monster.

I am pointing out that if the government declares her medical condition illegitimate, by implication it declares it illegitimate for everyone in prison or out. If it is legit for me it's legit for her.

THAT is my cause here, not the particular interest of the inmate.

And YES, it is financially out of reach for most American trans people, unless they work for one of the rare places which include it in insurance coverage, or live in a state which has mandated that coverage - which flows directly from Paul McHugh's jihad against it in the 1970's which caused Medicare to disallow it (Medicare often ends up being the market leader for what private insurance will do)

That's slowly changing now, but there is very much left to do on that front. YES, frankly, it pisses me off that the undeserving get it and I can't for lack of $$$ - but principle is principle even when it creates u distasteful outcome. The principle is that it is a legit medical condition with a legit course of treatment.

Changing positions due to political pressure, especially to deny reality, is most certainly not a virtue. Yet that is what we have seen happen. We saw pressure groups influence politicians who threatened funding unless definitions got changed. This was not an organic move by mental health professionals this was a political and finally cial move forced upon them.

Yes, mentally ill people often harm themselves, that is sad, no, the solution is not to humor the mental illness or to give $100,000 gifts to convicted murderers. If people want to use their own money to indulge in their mentally ill fantasies that is fine but they should not have the power to force other people to pay for it as well.

If the problem is they will harm themselves unless other people give them $100,000 gifts then they need to be in a highly controlled environment where they cannot harm themselves.

"Changing positions due to political pressure..."

Oh fuck off. To a bigot, anything that conflicts with their preferred view MUST be the result of some underhanded machinations, not because, ya know, science advances.

If reincarnation exists, you were surely one of those priests who was still preaching the sun moved around the earth 200 years after Galileo

Our vengeance based prison system is a failure, its been scientifically proven by every country that's tried its opposite, and ended up with a vastly lower crime and recidivism rate.
Like how when George Costanza did the opposite of his instincts, everything went right.
So, anything that puts us on the path towards the collapse of this disaster we have, fuckin' do it.
Give out sex changes, give out cookies and cake, hell, tuck 'em in at night.
Long as they're not on the streets, good enough for me.
Rather taxes go to that than guards raping people with mop handles.
Funny how Dinner sleeps like a baby with that shit going on, and thinks he's moral.

I read an article about Sweden's prison system, where the prisonerslive in nicer dorm set ups than most colleges have, they actually have a commissary that allows for fresh food they buy and cook for themselves and plenty of outdoor time.

More importantly, the system works with the private sector to line their inmates up with affordable housing and employment before they even leave prison, which is the biggest reason why 80 percent of them never return.