You could not possibly portray the left any more ridiculously, not even if a right-winger were preparing your material.
Whatever floats your boat Of course you could think it over rather than employing the typical right wing reflex, but I guess that would be asking too much.
To be honest, instead of at least trying some light humour (with a serious core), I could have said 'move in with JohnM and wait for the aliens' and still have not matched your hysterics
How could you possibly deduce that I've never thought it over? I'm 35 years old, for fuck's sake. I've had quite a long time to develop my political biases and accept or reject arguments on their merits. Just because I don't bother intelligently debating the issue now does not mean I haven't intelligently debated the issue. I think what I think and believe what I believe for a reason.
Well, I'm only 32 so obviously you have been thinking longer... Anyway. Explain to me how a 'country' worth the name could work without 'socialism' of any kind. I'll be in the shower so take your time
How socialist is the US? Ask Karl Marx, and his planks from the Communist Manifesto: 1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.- We are moving in this direction, although we still have a string tradition of private property. In this respect, the US is more fascist, as in a fascist state, the State allows you to keep peoperty- they just tell you what you can and can't do with it. 2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. We have this today. 3. Abolition of all right of inheritance. We are rapidly moving toward this, with death taxes and estate taxes, which makes it increasingly difficult for parents to pass along their estates to their children. 4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. Rebels? Those who oppose the government? 5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly. Of course, the Federal Reserve Board (1913) qualifies. And "credit in the hands of the State?" Hello, Billionaire Bailout Plan! Marx would have approved. 6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State. Pick your poison here. 7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. Environmentalism would qualify to some degree. We are not at the point of nationalization of factories but we are now with the financial sector. Manufacturing won't be far behind. 8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. "Volunteerism"? There has been much talk about forcing young people into two years of mandatory "public service" and no doubt Obama will lend his support to such an idea. 9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country. Not yet. 10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, &c., &c. Yup, yup and yup. As I said earlier, American Socialism is not as developed or advanced as European socialism, but there can be no doubt that we are socialist now and this will increase, regardless of who is elected.
Okay, now we're getting somewhere. What is there in Obama's past record or current behavior that leads you to believe any or all of these things will happen?
Then kill yourself. The WF I signed on for 5 years ago was never so whiny and fatalist. WTF happened?
Based on the campaign he's been running. As has been pointed out time and again, he doesn't have a terribly long voting record and the one he does have is very liberal. Personally, I consider "nationalising health care" as part of "fucking up the economy", for example (ignoring the specifics of his proposal here for a moment). Just taken from OnTheIssues: Rejects free market vision of government. (Oct 2007) Supports federal programs to protect rural economy. (May 2004) I sought re-regulation; McCain boasts he's a deregulator. (Oct 2008) REAL USA Plan: Reward companies that create domestic jobs. (Jun 2004) Voted YES on repealing tax subsidy for companies which move US jobs offshore. (Mar 2005) NAFTA needs to be amended. (Dec 2007) Stand firm against CAFTA for labor & environmental standards. (Aug 2007) Voted NO on implementing CAFTA for Central America free-trade. (Jul 2005) There are of course other issues where I fundamentally disagree with his stances as well - education, gun control, you name it. And the few issues I'd expect him to be decent on (drugs, gays, abortion) he isn't very convincing (except for abortion). It's just that for me personally the economy (and what I consider to be strongly related to the economy - i.e. health care, social security etc) accounts for probably about 60-80% of how much I like a candidate. Other issues are important as well, sure, but they just don't matter as much (I don't really care that much about the gays or even foreign policy (especially since it's hard to distinguish between McCain and Obama)...). So yeah, that's where I'm afraid of Obama.
So am I! Seriously! Also, I was talking with the owner of my local hobby shop. He's worried about keeping his buisiness alive. He said they barely mader it thru the Clinton years, and if they hadn't owned the building outright they never would have made it. Things have been shakey for him the last few years, but he's been manageing to stay in business, barely. Now he hears Obama's plans and he's starting to worry again. Since his is the only major hobby shop left within 30 miles, it'd seriously impact my hobby (not to mention his livlihood!)
So which of these are you and your friend worried about? * Ok for states & cities to determine local gun laws. (Apr 2008) * FactCheck: Yes, Obama endorsed Illinois handgun ban. (Apr 2008) * Respect 2nd Amendment, but local gun bans ok. (Feb 2008) * Provide some common-sense enforcement on gun licensing. (Jan 2008) * 2000: cosponsored bill to limit purchases to 1 gun per month. (Oct 2007) * Concealed carry OK for retired police officers. (Aug 2007) * Stop unscrupulous gun dealers dumping guns in cities. (Jul 2007) * Keep guns out of inner cities--but also problem of morality. (Oct 2006) * Bush erred in failing to renew assault weapons ban. (Oct 2004) * Ban semi-automatics, and more possession restrictions. (Jul 1998) * Voted NO on prohibiting lawsuits against gun manufacturers. (Jul 2005) This is great! I would love to address these one by one, but I doubt either of us has that kind of time. Still, thank you!
Well, good thing I don't actually 'live' in the US, but in a country that can be considering more socialist than 'most'....including lots in Europe. But, continue trying to educate me as to what socialism is.
Okay, here goes... 1. More meddling in the agricultural sector. For a long time the EPA has expressed the desire to have control over the USDA, which will no doubt mean more regulations in the name of protecting the environment and the illusion of "food safety". I don't "fear" Obama per se, but I am wary of those he'll appoint and what power he will grant them. How will this manifest itself? More top down, one sized fits all regulations on how I manage my land, with guidelines on cultivation, chemical application, grazing, and alterations (draining wetlands, building ponds, diverting water, drilling wells, livestock handling, etc.) More trampling of property rights. Look for more ethanol mandate style boondoggles, (which he is on record as supporting) with massive government funds and subsidies going to renewable energy schemes which like ethanol have already shattered the market dynamics of certain crops, and thanks to the mandate have already made fertilizer triple in price in the span of a year, and may just put me out of the wheat business. On the food safety angle I expect to see even more regulations, which have the averse effect of making sure that our food supply stays monolithic and industrial, and keeps the little direct marketers mired in red tape and potential lawsuits. Take the soon to be implemented mandatory animal identification scheme, that wants every animal (and soon to be every tomato) in America identified to source disease outbreaks. Never mind that disease outbreaks only occur in the centralized matrix of the industrial food system, where food from all over is brought to massive distribution centers, ironically crawling with government inspectors, as well as e coli. Of course if I butcher a steer and sell you a steak, I've broken the law. Am I wrong? Will Obama be a deregulator as far as my livelihood goes? I doubt it, his nanny state tendencies coupled with his environmentalism force me to conclude that we're about to see some seriously bad policy. The bureaucratic mindset is a constant as you know, I expect them to be emboldened by a new clamp down on America's countryside. 2. Taxes. Obama has expressed his great desire to redistribute anything I make over $250,000. No, I'm not there yet but I could be soon. So what does this do? It makes sure that instead of putting that money in the bank I go purchase deductible expenses to keep my net down. Even going into debt to buy machinery is a deduction, which in the sad end is preferable to handing it over to Uncle Sam. 3. Gun control. Laugh and mock all you want, but I take anything listed in the Bill of Rights pretty seriously, and no one has convinced me that Obama will not replace repealed (and failed) gun control schemes with new, even more draconian restrictions on an enumerated constitutional right. McCain has shown little affection for the First Amendment, I've yet to see Obama show any support for either the First or the Second, one wonders if he has any qualms with any of the rest.... How can he "respect" the Second Amendment, when he has in the past supported so many things that go against it? Should freedom of speech or freedom of the press be restricted at the local level? That personal enough for ya?
Very valid concerns, and I appreciate your detailing them for us. Your concern seems to be with Democratic Party nannying, rather than with Obama specifically, and while I'm not familiar with everything he's ever done for/against American farmers, I did find this from a question Stephanopoulos asked him on This Week in 2007: Also, his views on ethanol have shifted somewhat. Ethanol as in Corn Only has been a disaster. I don't personally know enough about the topic to say whether or not ethanol from non-staple sources would be a good or bad thing, but a lot of folks with more knowledge than me seem to think it's viable. Are your concerns valid? Certainly. Will they be realized? No way of knowing from here. Well, I'd argue that anyone who doesn't make a few deductible purchases every year isn't very creative. And in Buying American, you're helping the overall economy, as well as improving your personal assets. Well, no surprise that you and I part company here. You'll never convince me that a gun is just as valuable or necessary as the right to speak one's mind. But two out of three ain't bad. Excellent - thank you!
"20% of US energy will be from renewables within 10 years." "95% of people will get a tax reduction" [hint: over 35% don't pay any taxes anyway] "I would sit and talk with Ahmadinejad." "Wait, no I wouldn't." 'my favorite single movie would be the Godfather Trilogy (except part 3) and Casablanca and Lawrence of Arabia. Really.'
