Gunforge: Let's talk self defense.

However, a .45 ACP Winchester Silvertip will NOT penetrate an interior wall that has been covered with stucco, it will however take a really huge divitt and throw plaster dust all over before bouncing off and dribbling to a stop under your TV stand.

Suppose thats better than in Britain, when our cops get them they shoot innocent people!

I would like to apologize and admit I was wrong about the buckshot not penetrating drywall. I was obviously wrong. I'm not sure why I thought and typed buckshot, when what I should have thought, and subsequently typed, birdshot.

Mike - the thing is, I knew better but I said it. Idiot I am!

Sometimes it's harder to admit that than to admit ignorance...

I recommend using a chain saw. Although it will easily penetrate dry wall and attackers alike, the range is limited enough to prevent harm to your neighbors.

False, as seen with my own eyes.

A slightly larger than average athletic built male wearing winter clothing was shot five times at point blank range with standard lead #4 Buckshot. The clothes alone caused the pellets to flatten and they barely broke the skin. He was not under the influence of any substance and he managed to turn and run away from the, frankly, shocked officer.

If you're going to use Buckshot, don't fuck around. Use 000 3-inch Magnums. There's no man ever been made that'll walk away from two of those at close range. In fact, when using that shell, the average number of shots fired, nationally, during a lethal force encounter is 1.2.

If you're not going to use Buckshot, use a good quality steel #8 shot and fire twice.

[action=Forbin]rushes home to drag out the #4 for some 00.[/action]

Screw the magums. I tried them in a double-barrel coach gun and almost knocked myself out.

You know, in the Binghamton Shootings, the police hid behind SUV doors, interestingly enough.

I gues they weren't the best cops, huh?

Tactical expedience may not allow you to use your engine block and if that happens, a door is better than nothing.

Well, those guys were showing up with vehicles, they knew where the bad guy was, and they chose car doors.

If you say that happened, I believe you. But I have to think there were some extenuating circumstances (very heavy clothing, weak loads, few pellet hits on the perp, etc.).

I've never done scientific studies, but when I was a teenager I would frequently shoot all sorts of things with all kinds of shotgun loads. I quickly came to the conclusion that ANY shotgun wound at close range would be devastating.

Neither a 1/16" thick steel sheet or a water jug is human flesh, of course, but I had no trouble punching holes in the former and absolutely disintegrating the latter, even with light birdshot loads. Anything that punches steel plate will have no problem piercing human skin; anything that turns a 2 liter soda bottle filled with water inside out will have no problem wrecking human tissue.

With regards #4 vs 00...

2-3/4 loads from Remington have 27 pellets of #4 and 9 pellets of 00 (magnum rounds have greater counts--41 and 15, respectively). Each #4 buck pellet is .27 in diamter; each 00 is .33.

The area gouged out by the #4 pellets is 27 * 3.14 * (0.5 * 0.27)^2 = 1.54 square inches.

The area gouged out by the 00 pellets is 15 * 3.14 * (0.5 * 0.33)^2 = 1.28 square inches.

Assuming roughly equal penetration depths, the #4 SHOULD have the slight advantage in lethality, cutting a bigger total swath as it does. The #4 and 00 buckshot loads from Remington both have a muzzle velocity of 1325 fps; I would think the smaller diameter would have the edge on penetration...of course, my intuition might be completely wrong...

I don't know what statistics there are out there on buckshot shootings, but I would think ANY buckshot load would be a good manstopper (else, how could it stop a deer at much greater ranges?).

I think you guys should just call up Darth Cheney and ask him- I'm sure he knows the answer when it comes to Buckshot VS Human flesh.

At what range, and with what choke are those figures for?

Originally Posted by Uncle Albert
The only weapons you will always have at your disposal are your own mind and body.

Not really....if I'm with you, I guarantee you can outrun/outhobble me
and leave me as bait!

The total cross sectional area of the pellets is the same for any choke or range. Even when the pellets spread out, their total cross sectional area remains the same. It's just the geometry of the pellets.

Note: I'm presuming the pellets are dispersed so that one pellet does not immediately follow another. Obviously, this is not true right at the muzzle. At the muzzle, the total cross sectional area of the pellets is reduced, because they are stacked. I'm just saying that, by the areas, if ALL of the pellets in a #4 or #00 buckshot charge hit the target and each followed a different path, the total area gouged out by the #4 pellets would be slightly greater. Whether the #4 would penetrate deeper (and create greater wound VOLUME) than the #00, I don't know.

This site seems to indicate that the pellets are completely dispersed (i.e., individual holes in the target) within 3-4 yards.

The diagram below is what I'm getting at...

As a simple approximation, a projectile's lethality is closely related to the amount (volume) of tissue it destroys. (Duh!) The amount of tissue it destroys is (approximately, disregarding hyper-velocity rounds) the cross-sectional area of the projectile times depth of penetration. Area times depth = volume.

A .45 ACP is more effective than a .22 Long Rifle because the larger diameter bullet (and much larger momentum) creates a larger, deeper track of tissue destruction.

While a single #00 buckshot pellet is much bigger than a #4 buckshot pellet, there are A LOT MORE #4 pellets in the same size cartridge. On the diagram, the shaded area shows the cross sectional area of the pellets.

Which would do the more damage? Again, I don't know because I don't have data on buckshot penetration. But it would appear that #4 has an edge at least in cross sectional area. Of course, a .44 Special has a cross-sectional edge over a .357 Magnum, too...

Okay, to totally run this into the ground...

I got some penetration data on buckshot. According to this site, #00 penetrates ballistic gelatin quite a bit better than #4. On the other hand, the temporary stretch cavity created by #4 is larger.

This is an interesting quote (emphasis mine):

In conclusion, a threat would be neutralized with either of those.

I think if you're going to take a spread of buckshot to the face or torso from a distance of less than 50 feet, you can pretty much plan on being worm food immediately thereafter.

I give no guarantee about the age of the shells in the weapon. It all goes back to the old "Most cops aren't gun people" theme. I routinely bought new 000 Buck shells out of my own pocket and distributed them to my guys because if not for that, most of them would have carried the same 5 shells throughout their entire career.

I've been looking at the Saiga 12 shotgun (an AK that shoots 12 gauge shotgun shells) as a possible defensive scattergun. It holds 10 3" Magnums in a detachable magazine.

I imagine 10 shots of 3" Magnum buckshot would destroy just about anything that isn't armor plated...

Reading the literature, #4 buck seems to be the choice for indoors (on account of lower penetration), #00 or #000 for outdoors (at greater ranges, a single pellet hit is more damaging). I can see why the one website suggests #1 buckshot as a good compromise for all situations...