Not Mann. I like his stuff, generally, and even specifically in some cases. Glad you shared it here. I meant those absent from this thread (so far) who made it a better read by not being here.
Nah, the Greeks were pretty big on slaves... even in the "liberal democracy" of Athens, suffrage only extended to a minor percent of the population. You might want to study a little further than "300".
Oh, and let's not be forgetting the influence of the French on shaping America... Where would you have gotten without Rousseau's "Social Contract" or Voltaire making soundbites?
Um, the helots were slaves. Guess I was too subtle - well, too subtle for sloppy readers I mean. As for your half-assed put down, I've already read pretty much everything written by both Herodotus and Thucydides, more than once in some cases (my Ancient Greek is feeble, so I relied on translations). Perhaps you can suggest some better sources I should check out - better than actual ancient greek historians, I mean. "300" my ass, you turkey.
In the context, further precision would have added nothing, and more likely would just muck up the thread with pointless tangents or digressions.
I'd concur that many individuals were no doubt influenced by the native american way of life. I'm not sure the Iroquois Confederacy is a great example of that however - they stole children and indoctrinated them into their own views as part of the 'mourning war'. The Oneida were largely assimilated in this way - it's estimated 2/3rds of the Oneida Village were stolen and became members of the Iroquois. Like I said, people. With the same fucked up mistakes. Mann explicitly states that the Iroquois Confederacy was a direct influence on the Founding Fathers in the US and heavily influenced the formation of the Articles of Confederation. Problem with that is we have copious notes of what was said at that convention, and they were never once mentioned. It's revisionist bullshit. But then, that's what makes careers, isn't it? Oh, and the reduction of external authority was in large measure indicative of the reasons behind the change in the colonists outlooks. For example, the town meetings in Plymouth Colony and the famous Viriginia Assembly all the way back to 1619 showed strong democratic principles - before the colonists had even made basic inroads in to the Indian vocabulary or social structure.
