I'm getting ready to buy my AR-15 in a couple of weeks and I was looking at Rock River, but now I'm seriously considering the Stag Model 8. The reviews I've read on the Stag sound pretty good. I definitely want the piston over the gas version. What say you, Gunforge?
In my opinion Eugene Stoner knew what he was doing with the direct impingement system when he created the rifle for Aramalite just the same as John Moses Browning knew what he was doing when he created the 1911. With that line of thinking why tinker with it? So I gotta ask why go short stroke gas piston? A properly lubed M16/AR15/M4gerie will run into 10,000 rounds with out cleaning it. Is it the "shit where you eat" argument? Or the "Gas in your face" line of thinking? I suggest you go to the forums on M4carbine.net and read, read, read about the short stroke gas piston models available. IIRC Colt makes a short stroke gas piston. Keep in mind that what I have heard hasn't been too favorable about the SSGPs models from many of the manufacturers (LWRC, Stag, etc..). There may be an exception from Knights Armament Company though. The only brands in the AR / M4gerie category I would consider buying (DI) would be Colt, LMT, Noveske, Bravo Company Manufacturing, or S&W. Of those manufacturers all of them stake their gas keys and castle nuts, high pressure test and magnetic particle inspect their bolts, carriers, and barrels. All but one of their manufacturers use barrels made of 4150 CMV steel with a 1:7 twist. S&W uses a 4140 barrel steel with a 1:9 twist. All come with a standard M16 bolt carrier, not the AR15 or the AR15 enhanced carrier. All have the correct "H buffer" and the correct extractor spring (IIRC 5 coil, not 3 coils) and the correct black insert. All have true 5.56mm chambers, Not .223 chambers. All have the proper front sight base. All have a reputation of high reliability, quality control and quality parts. In other words these manufacturers (with the exception of S&W) at least meet the Technical Data Package (TDP) AKA "Mil Spec"*. S&W would if they switched to a 4150 CMV barrel in 1:7. Those Stag, BM, RRA, DPMS/Panther are not at the least Mil Spec**, don't have those reputations, don't properly stake or even try to stake (which would add about $15 to $10 to the price of their weapons), may or may not have a 5.56mm chamber. May or may not have the correct front sight base, don't HPT or MPI their parts or at best batch test out of lots. Now consider that a S&W or BCM is just $200 to $300 more, I can't see a reason to not save up a little bit more cash to buy the better model. However I am coming from the line of thought that my M4gerie is my primary home defense. Just like I wouldn't use an iffy pistol for that role or self defense, I won't take a chance on the rifle. However if this is just a "fun gun" / "range plinker" then go Stag or RRA. Oh and if you have a shit load of money available, why not check out the FNH USA SCAR? Its a short stroke piston and is probably the best SSGP out there in 5.56 or 7.62 * = About the TDP / Mil Spec. That is the bare minimum that should be aimed for. There are only one or two manufacturers who actually may exceed that. Why? Because materials science when it comes to the critical components that make up the rifle (I.e. the steel) haven't changed all that much since the early 60s. Sure you can go with stainless or other steels, but those are generally used for a specific application like varmint hunting or 3 gun competitions or bench rest shooting and aren't too applicable when it comes to the weapons designed purpose. Also the operating characteristics (charging handle excepted) are about as optimal as you can get. Sure you can change a butt stock or put rails on it or change out the pistol grip or put rails in place of the carrying handle but that's about it. All of those are ergonomic changes. Having said that, they materials science did change quite a bit though since the 1911 was first introduced. So that is why with 1911s the end user wants to exceed the TDP for that particular weapon while with the M16/AR15/M4gerie you want to at least meet the TDP and then are hard pressed to beat it. ** = Sorry RRA, but saying that you got the DEA contract does not mean that you are Mil Spec. It just means that you got a non military government agency to buy your weapons. Man I feel like I was just possessed by Async. I need a beer after writing that.
^ I need a beer after reading it. No, it's not for plinking. I'm buying it as a varmint/home defense/SHTF gun, but I don't have a shitload of money to spend. I'm doing good to fork out the $1100 for a Stag or RRA. I've been saving for months to get it.
$1100.00 for a Stag or RRA? Who ever is willing to sell it to you for that price is ass-raping you. If you are willing to go for a DI rifle, you can build a kick ass BCM rifle for about $900 or so. Remember what I said about the price difference? You can't buy a complete BCM rifle from BCM. You have to buy the upper and lower as separate units, but then again that saves you cash when it comes to taxes. Google G&R tactical and look through his website. Grant is located in Ohio and is dedicated to the AR/M4gerie community. I can't think of a better, more knowledgeable retailer, who gives great customer service and support out there. He will take care of you. PM me for more details. In fact this is where I will part ways with the TDP. Get the midlength gas system upper. Its easier on the rifle than the standard M4 gas system and easier on you. I'm saving up for one right now in fact. As soon as I get it, my standard (16") upper goes up for sale. But for fucks sake, dont spend that type of cash on a Stag or RRA. Shit for about $100.00 more you can get a DI Colt 6920.
Yeah, no shit. When I was in Southeastern yesterday, they had a S&W M&P-15 MOE for $1,000 out the door, tax and all. They had a Ruger SR-556 (if you really want a piston gun) for $950 out the door. Bushmasters and Rock Rivers were considerably less. Oh, and they had two Bushmaster ACR's. Mike agreed with me that Bushmaster screwed the pooch on that one. The absolute best price he could put on it was $2,280+tax.
Fuck. Yeah Magpul allowing Cerebus to have Bushmaster make the ACR for civilian sales and Remmington make it for law enforcement / military use is nigh on unforgivable. Fucking fuckity fuck head bastards!!!!! If I wasnt such a MagPul whore I would boycott them. So I lie to myself and tell myself that Cerebus fucked over MagPul.
That's the first post in this thread that didn't leave me scratching my head. I've liked the looks of that Stag Model 8 the best of anything I've seen. Liked the flip-down front and rear sights. I plan to add a scope at some point, so I liked the option of getting the sights out of the way.
So why not just get an upper with a gas block instead of a front sight base? What about the thread has had you scratching your head?
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I went with the Stag Model 8. In fact, I have it right here in my hot little hands. (Note: my hands are not as little as Elwood's.)
I took my son over to the orchard and we shot up a few rounds to try it out. Dang, my son is a good shot for a newbie! A chip off the old block. He was a bit scared of it at first and reluctant to fire that first shot. I just about had to make him do it. He fired a few single rounds at the target and hit it, then I told him to rapid fire it. He did and nailed the target with just about every shot. He was grinning ear to ear after. I think it gave him a woody.
Yeah, I'm lovin' the Stag. It's sweet. Flip up sights that I can move out of the way when I add a scope, quad rail already mounted. It doesn't have a front ring for a sling because the quad rail is already mounted. The gun shop has a ring ordered for me. Now I'm saving money for some optics.
Hey Muad, can you post some pics? Also, when you say flip up sights, are you talking about backup sights like this?
Can y0ou cancel that order? For a sling mount, if you have a quad rail, you can get a sling mount that attaches to the rail. IIRC Yankee Hill, GG&G, Troy Industries, and Midwest Industries should carry them for dirt cheap. Check out MidwayUSA or direct from the manufacturers website.
Yes that's pretty similar. Mine are made by Midwest Industries. I'll post some pics over the next few days.
My nephew's AR is a CMMG with Midwest Handguards... He's since "untricked it out" from what's shown here as he found simpler and lighter was better.
As a reenactor who toted a 9 lb reproduction of an 1853 Enfield around for years, I learned that lesson a long time ago. In reenacting, you can tell the "fresh fish" from the experienced veterans by how much crap they're carrying around. The newbies have everything but the kitchen sink in their haversacks while the vets carry only the basic necessities that they NEED on the field. The same is true for cavers. I plan to add some optics in the near future. Probably not much else. Might get a light at some point. Maybe. Lasers, lights, bipods, bayonets, etc., all look cool, but they add a ton of weight to the rifle.
This is the AR I built for my buddy... It's got a 14.5" barrel (w/permanent flash hider to make it legal) and is a no-frills M4gery. He topped it off with an EOTech XPS holosight and I think that makes for just about the ideal lightweight rifle package. Here's my Mall Ninja rifle: I've tricked it out with a mid-length rail (even though it's a carbine), Magpul UBR stock, back-up iron sights, and an EOTech. I've yet to add the forward grip, flashlight, new pistol grip, winter trigger guard, extended bolt release, laser, and coffeemaker. I love it, but it's overweight. I'm going to build myself another M4gery like I made for my friend.
I gotta agree with him. There have been ongoing debates about this and I have to say that I towards the minimalist camp. Rifle, light, optic. For a hand guard I personally went with the MagPul MOE. Maybe one day I will get that ACOG, but for now I am trying to move from my EoTech to an Aimpoint. Its more a personal issue for me along the lines of folks that wont buy anything from Ruger. The only other option I am thinking about is the MagPul VFG. It seems to make the ergonomics of shooting a rifle a lot better giving you a more stable firing platform from just about any position. A suggestion, when buying a red dot sight, stick with a brand name (EoTech, Aimpoint, or Trijicon ACOG). Avoid the Chinese knock offs like the plague. You wind up thinking you saved money only for it to go up in smoke. Ask Apostle how well that worked out for him. For me, a light for HD is a pretty danged important thing to have. The question is tape switch or no switch. I havent made up my mind. Honestly that doesn't look like Mall Ninja to me at all. Looks to me like you made a bunch of good decisions with that one. The UBR is top notch, the mid length hand guard gives you a longer (i.e. better) sight radius. The trigger guard makes sense as well. Righties, that extended bolt release is important. Isn't that what a private is for?
It is the rifle I wanted to build and, yes, all the goodies make sense. If the Great Shitting of the Fan were at hand, it would be the one I'd take with me into the woods. It's just a little on the heavy side for just taking out and having fun with. I want a second no-frills M4 (no carrying handle, plus EOTech) for going out and drilling tin cans... P.S. Do you have an opinion on Magpul's Angled Fore Grips?
I do! Bushmaster came out with that idea five years ago. Nobody bought them so they ditched them. Let's see how many Mall-Ninja Magpul fanboys now come out of the wood work screaming that it's the best thing since sliced bread.
Yeah I do. Thats what I was talking about when I said VFG above, but I had brain lock. My opinion based on what I have seen and heard...it takes a bit of retraining to use. It enforces a particular posture. Once one has mastered it though I have heard its the cats ass. In that case its not a bell or whistle IMO but it becomes a critical component for hitting what you shoot. To me that would mean that I would consider it to be a pretty important bit of gear to have. Oh and I am planning on a BCM middie upper. I am going to shave down the FSP, throw MOE handguards on it and then put up a spring loaded front sight. I will then out a sling mount on the rear of the hand guard to get as close to having a free floating barrel as possible with out using something like a purpose built rail. I am also going to put an ambi sling mount where the castle nut goes and then run it with a modified 2 point sling that can be made into a 1 point on the fly as necessary. I am also looking at a 6.8mm upper, gotta be SPC II chamber though. I don't know about about buying a new lower. I want one, but I have to negotiate that with She Who Shall Be Obeyed.
Leave us alone Then again maybe people would have taken interest in it if they werent such a shit company well known for putting out a shoddy product BTW, any pics to what BM had? This is the first I have heard of it? Or do you just mean a simple hand stop?
